American Masters on PBS tonight

[Chang Style Novice]

I haven't watched it yet - it's sitting on tape for me at home.

And it's no exagerration at all. JB was rapping on "King Heroin" in the mid-60s. He revolutionized the role of rhythm in american pop music. If rappers didn't sample JB tracks, they sampled tracks directly and heavily influenced by him from artists as diverse as Led Zeppelin and Chic. Even David Bowie/John Lennon's "Fame" is practically a remake of JB's "Hot (I Need to be Loved Loved Loved)." You don't believe me? Ask Chuck D or Rakim orAfrika Bambaataa if there would be rap without James Brown.

Furthermore, James Brown, Marvin Gaye, Smokey Robinson and other early soul greats were an enormous influence on early reggae. Those songs were covered dozens of times by people like Toots and the Maytals, The Wailers, Jimmy Cliff and so on. So yes, JB is responsible for their descendent dancehall as well.

Giant doesn't begin to describe JB's status in 20th century music. He is probably the single most important american musician ever.

[MasterKiller]

He is probably the single most important american musician ever.

Well, I would say Woodie Guthrie, but to each his own.

[Chang Style Novice]

Guthrie was a genius songwriter but didn't change how music is made very much. I'm speaking of musician qua musician. Guthrie and his influents (Seegar, Dylan, etc.) are much more poets than music makers, IMO.

[Starchaser107]

a convincing arguement. the question now is why isn't he given more credit if such be the case?

btw, dancehall might have emerged from reggae but, it's birth was unique to it, not directly it's child imho, so maybe you're right maybe you're not.

I can appreciate the pioneers of rap music heralding jb as a significant contributor to the artform, that is more than acceptable. but to say that without him it would Not exist is still a tall statement.

to go either way is still in the ether of theory.

In an analogy I would say that : If one were to subtract the chocolate chips from the cookie... it would still be a cookie.

If you subtract the sugar from the cookie it might be a very bland cookie , or ever a cracker...

If you subtract the flour from the cookie you have the basic ingredients waiting for something to gel it together.

what I'm saying is , I percieve JB to be more akin to the chocolate chip , and less comparative to the flour itself. I don't believe any individual is THAT monumental , not in this case.

but your historical background references otherwise , seem sound.

[Chang Style Novice]

It is a tall statement, but I stand by it firmly. The best way to understand JBs influence is to compare music before his emergence with music from afterwards. I think that the difference will be very, very obvious.

The flour in the cookie recipe is a perfect way to describe JB's effect on rap, because with his flour you also can make pancakes, hearth bread, biscuits, waffles, etc. He's that critical and wide ranging an influence.

[Starchaser107]

Somehow I knew you'd go with the flour, and I can respect that you wanna stand by your opinion.

for my benefit could you please list the type of music that was prior to his coming and what immediately suceeded. perhaps within a 3 or so year span before and likewise after.

thanks in advance.

[Chang Style Novice]

Here's a early funk map from allmusic.com to help you out with that.

Here's an essay on Funk from the same site placing an appropriately strong emphasis on JB.

Here's the main entry on funk at allmusic, note the quote at the end "(funk) became the foundation of hiphop." Also, the rap music map is simplistic in the extreme, it simply segues from funk and disco (JB, Isaac Hayes, Barry White) into Early Rap (Sugarhill Gang, Grandmaster Flash, Kurtis Blow, Fat Boys, Afrika Bambaataa).

This is why I'm so certain of what I say - I'm actually quoting the standard orthodoxy of raps origins when I say JB is responsible for it's very existence. I frankly find it kind of astounding that the idea is being questioned - although I don't mind it at all. Skepticism of orthodox ideas can only be a healthy thing.

[Kristoffer]

Actually rap is way older than JB. In African cultures there is a tradition of rhytmically speaking, telling storys such as the villages past etc. This was surley broaght to America by the slaves. The way they used it was to speak in rhytm over african drums. (beats).

And who created the genre, most people who know the history would say that The Last Poets was the first to do it. Not Brown, not some random people of the streets but TLP. They gave inspiration to the first commercial rappers.

http://www.math.buffalo.edu/~sww/LAS...st_poets0.html

[dwid]

Ah, so rap came to America with the slaves, and then was underground for about 200 years until the first Last Poets album was released.

That makes sense.

[Kristoffer]

lol

no, but the way of doin it was around a long time before being formed into the rap genre. And of corz you can't say that only one man or one group was first because theres probebly many people doing the same things. What the poets did was that they took poetry and read it over the african beats. One of the members specialitys was poetry that rhymed, so he built his whole act upon those rhymes.

(and no I don't dislike Mr Brown but there wouldn't be any discussion if I agreed with you all )

[Chang Style Novice]

Well rapping as a style of vocal delivery is, of course, as old as humankind. But rap music, in the way we know it today can be traced to various different origins of variable controversy. Certainly the Last Poets did a lot to inspire, along with their contemporary Gil Scott Heron. The main difference between what they did and what happened later in the Bronx with Kool Herc was the technological innovation of using the turntable as a musical instrument to provide a rhythmic backing for the raps. The Last Poets and Gil Scott Heron used jazzish, beatnikesque live bands, heavy on the string bass and bongos. The music was merely to provide a background for the vocals, the main point of the performance was the lyrics. It was mostly political music, not party music. Kool Herc and later Afrika Bambaataa, Grandmaster Flash and so on were primarily concerned with getting parties started and provviding a good time for everyone in attendance, and used the best parts (breakbeats) of funk and disco hit records to get the job done, including plenty of JB and people influenced by JB. Lyrics at these events were exagerrated boasting, exhortations to dance, call and response chants and so on, not political diatribes. Later, with KRS-1, Public Enemy, and others this aspect of rapping made it's way back into the new music (by now better described as hiphop.)

But still, in songs like "(Say it Loud) I'm Black and I'm Proud", "Talking Loud and Saying Nothing" and "Papa's Got a Band New Bag" JB provided inspiration and influence to BOTH streams - the party MCs and the political activists.

[Starchaser107]

you know, this Forces the question of how significant the dj's contribution to hip hop was verses the emcees. lots of old black(negro) lamentations/ spirituals sound pretty much like rap to me.
I guess it depends on who you're asking.

rap to me is primarily vocals , and it's vocal roots go waay further back than james brown.

because jb got the spotlight and made something famous doesnt mean all the credit should go to him, although he DESERVES credit for the Accomplishments that he has made. rap as a complete musical genre today most Definately Definately Definately has to recognize the influence of James brown, but to me its more than that. JJJ has nothing to do with the Gracies in terms of how it was developed but BJJ most definately has. JJ on a whole will exist regardless of wether or not the gracies existed.

To me a fair compromise would be to say that James Brown was Influential to Some of the Elements in rap, and I'd be pleased to say this in front of the blastmaster , or the great chuck-d.

I share views with chuck-d on lots of things, most recently the free music contraversy. however in this circumstance I will stick to my assertations.