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Thread: Wing Chun, Yip Man and Sifu Ross

  1. #31
    "The cult of someone who knew very little, talked like a fortune cookie and benefitted from dying early... "

    See now this is what grates me about the anti-Bruce Lee crowd. Because, apparently, they all knew him on a personal level. I think most JKD people are full of it and are just trying to milk the name which Lee regretted ever making, but that doesnt mean that Bruce was at fault. Knew little? he spent a major part of his life fighting in the streets of hong kong. I would say that he had more fights than nearly everyone on that (and this) forum, yet they are all experts on what works and what doesnt.

    At the end of the day, no one here is any position to pass judgement on someone who they have never met. Apparently by seeing his movies and reading some crap on the internet, you know all there is to know about Lee? sure. And you would think most practitioners of kung fu would have the respect not to diss someone who is already dead. But I guess thats what seperates the frauds from the people who have actually learnt more than how to throw a punch from their training.
    "If there is no grand plan; if there is no big picture; if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

  2. #32
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    Ikken said:

    "See now this is what grates me about the anti-Bruce Lee crowd.
    Because, apparently, they all knew him on a personal level. I think most JKD people are full of it and are just trying to milk the name which Lee regretted ever making, but that doesnt mean that Bruce was at fault."

    I've spent a lot of time distancing myself from whay people think is CMAA thanks to his on screen theatrics.

    "Knew little?"

    Accoding to Yip Man.

    "he spent a major part of his life fighting in the streets of hong kong. I would say that he had more fights than nearly everyone on that (and this) forum, yet they are all experts on what works and what doesnt."

    Bruce fought no one. He was a contemporary to some of the greatest TCMA fighters of all time ( The Hung Bros., Wang Shu Jin etc...) Did he really seek the truth or did he seek to dazzle?

    "At the end of the day, no one here is any position to pass judgement on someone who they have never met. Apparently by seeing his movies and reading some crap on the internet, you know all there is to know about Lee? sure. And you would think most practitioners of kung fu would have the respect not to diss someone who is already dead. But I guess thats what seperates the frauds from the people who have actually learnt more than how to throw a punch from their training."

    And you are armed with less facts then the Lee detractors and have served his memory how? So if you are not a Bruce movie fan you are a KF fraud? Because that's all Bruce really did is make a few good movies.

    I like his JKD ideas though. These ideas have spawned a legacy of guys who train realistically and work hard. Was he original? No.There is nothing Bruce Lee said that Wang XianJai hadn't said and Bruce's cross training? Done in the 1800's by the Xingyi and Bagua guys.

    Bruce was only new to America.


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  3. #33
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    Bai He-

    So, you are saying traditonal chinese martial art masters advocate cross training? Such as modern strength (weight) training?

    From my limited experience most traditional teachers don't advocate that. But then they teach you to use sandbags, weighted concrete blocks,....etc.

    Which is the same thing to me, but for some reason that seems to be different.

  4. #34
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    Some did advocate it, some did not.
    In the IMA's I study (Bagua and Xingyi) all the
    the old guys cross trained in both arts and most had
    trained in arts previous to their Ima study.
    My BaGua is heavily influenced by SC techniques.

    As far a supplemental physical training? Many arts
    have it and have had it. From Dynamic tension exercises twisting bundles of sticks (wrist strength) and hanging from trees.

  5. #35
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    oh brother. lmdc or whatever is what he makes fun of: a "type" often found in this or any art. The great uncoverer of traditional lies. Wow I had no idea learning a form didn't make you a super fighter.

    Yip man did Opium. so what? Bruce Lee and Yip Man had natural talent. you can follow all the rules you want but you either got it or you don't.
    I do not ever see Sifu do anything that could be construed as a hula dancer- hasayfu

  6. #36
    Originally posted by BAI HE

    I've spent a lot of time distancing myself from whay people think is CMAA thanks to his on screen theatrics.


    Its true that a lot of people seem to think that all martial artists fight like Bruce Lee. that is irelevant though. I can't think of one movie with kung fu action and a believable fight scene, mainly because a believable fight scene would be boring. He was a fighter, but he was an actor as well who knew what the americans wanted.

    "Knew little?"

    Accoding to Yip Man.
    knew little about wing chun you mean- he only studied it for two years. Depends on how you look at it though- Yip Man had probably forgotten more about martial arts than Bruce ever learned, but thats like saying einstein would have forgotten more about science than I have learned. not exactly a put-down.

    Bruce fought no one. He was a contemporary to some of the greatest TCMA fighters of all time ( The Hung Bros., Wang Shu Jin etc...) Did he really seek the truth or did he seek to dazzle?
    Right.... Of course I dont know either, but apart from being an amateur boxer he was constantly getting into fights when he was a teenager which was part of the reason he was sent to america. I dont really know what else to say, unless everyone who knew him has been lying all these years.


    And you are armed with less facts then the Lee detractors and have served his memory how? So if you are not a Bruce movie fan you are a KF fraud? Because that's all Bruce really did is make a few good movies.
    I serve his memory by not bagging a dead person for achieving so much for modern martial arts. And when did I say anything about having to be a fan of his movies? And he didnt "just make a few movies" He opened the door for westerners into CMA.

    I like his JKD ideas though. These ideas have spawned a legacy of guys who train realistically and work hard. Was he original? No.There is nothing Bruce Lee said that Wang XianJai hadn't said and Bruce's cross training? Done in the 1800's by the Xingyi and Bagua guys.

    Bruce was only new to America.
    Now this is exactly what Im talking about. GASP! you mean Bruce Lee didnt invent cross training!?!?! oh no! Ill let you in on a secret here- no one ever claimed he did. And to be truthful he was new to china as well- they didnt actually have many good chop socky movies and to them, he was a star, an icon of how chinese people can do well in america. Which I think is more important than any fighting ability
    "If there is no grand plan; if there is no big picture; if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do."

  7. #37
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    "Bruce was only new to America."

    Bai He has taken the correct, placed its teeth against a curb, and stomped the back of its neck.
    "i would show them 8 hours of animal porn and beheadings in a single sitting then make them write a paper about italy." -GDA
    "he said there were tons of mantids fornicating everywhere. While he was there, he was sending me photos of mantis porn regularly." - Gene Ching

  8. #38
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    BAI HE-

    Training in another style wasn't exactly my definition of cross training. I was referring more to like, what you said about physical training, tension, twisting bamboo, etc.

    Yet these exercises are nothing more than resistance training, for the most part. Some of which, in my opinion, MAYBE inferior to modern strength and conditioning methods.

    For ex. dynamic tension, although increases strength quickly, does not increase overall strength as much as max.load training.

  9. #39
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    For ex. dynamic tension, although increases strength quickly, does not increase overall strength as much as max.load training.

    Reply]
    True, but those that have done it will tell you it makes you hard as steel. The extra resistance to impact is an obvious benift to anyone who fights.

    I personally like the idea of a good 40 minute run of San Zhen after doing modern weights/strength training. It's more well rounded, and the two methods complement each other well.
    Those that are the most sucessful are also the biggest failures. The difference between them and the rest of the failures is they keep getting up over and over again, until they finally succeed.


    For the Women:

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  10. #40
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    Re: Wing Chun, Yip Man and Sifu Ross

    I'm not sure what David Ross's beef is with Bruce Lee or Yip Man.
    He studied with neither gentleman, nor apparently has he trained in Wing Chun. Perhaps the Lama guys had a thing against Wing Chun, who knows?

    Did Yip Man have an opium habit towards the end of his life? Yes.

    Did Yip Man bring Wing Chun to the public eye in HK? Yes.

    Did Yip Man have a core group of students he taught the system to LONG before William Cheung or Leung Ting were around?

    Sure. Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Chu Shong Tin, Yip Bo Ching, Wong Shun Leung

    Did Wing Chun gain popularity in HK it's challenge matches? Yes.

    As Yip Man became famous in HK, did he have a lack of interest in teaching teenagers either one on one or in class? Yep.

    Did Wing Chun gain international popularity due to Bruce Lee being a former student? Sure enough.

    Is Wing Chun one of the largest and most popular TCMA? Yep.

    Did Bruce Lee have a lot of students with either extensive Boxing, Streetfighting or Kenpo experience before becoming his students? Yes.

    Jesse Glover
    James DeMile
    Ed Hart

    Dan Inosantos
    Larry Hartsell

    One has to wonder WHY guys like this who were physically larger and stronger than Lee would have become his students and stayed with him--if he had nothing to offer. The same goes for Chuck Norris, Joe Lewis, and Mike Stone.

    Has there been a lot of "diefication" of Bruce Lee and JKD? Sure.

    Was Bruce Lee's training in Wing Chun incomplete? Of Course!

    But as one can see, a lot of this can be said in a way that doesn't sound petty envious or disrespectful. Why be a player hater?

    That said, what are Mr Ross's contributions to either Wing Chun OR JKD? Other than sideline sour grapes?

    Guys like Matt Thorton or Tommy Carruthers are keeping JKD alive in their active approach of training and doing.

    Both Yip Man and his former student Bruce Lee did a tremendous amount of good in terms of general exposure to Chinese Martial arts literally around the world. In the end they were both only human and had their own personal mental and physical frailties.

    Even with those, they have influenced and brought awareness to millions of people about martial arts in general. And each had their core set of students with amazing talent and martial skill. Pretty amazing things for two "skinny little" chinese guys.

    Perhaps that just eats at the insides of Mr Ross--at this point who cares?

    Why spit on two dead men's graves, jealous of their place in history, and what they did and didn't do with their lives?



    Originally posted by jimbob
    Not sure who else here visits the Underground forum but for those of you missing it, Sifu Ross has opened a jkd Pandora's box over there, and bless his furry little self, has the jkd population in quite a dither. David if you're reading this - inspired stuff mate!

    In amongst it all, he raised some interesting points about Yip Man - his frail health, his "distractions" shall we say, that supposedly curtailed his teaching abilities.

    Now - I know very little about wing chun and I have no desire to start more $hit here. But these thoughts crossed my mind in reading Sifu Ross's arguments.

    If much of the wing chun we see comes to us through the Yip Man lineage (certainly seems to be a point of some prestige for a wing chun person), and Yip Man perhaps wasn't as capable a teacher as he could have been, and his students perhaps were not taught as completely as they might have been, before they themselves began spreading the word, then what is the true state of wing chun as most of us know it today?

    I have visions of Japanese karate - a highly watered down misunderstood facsimilie of something else that has become shackled to tradition and ritual, and which has little bearing on either self defense or fighting. Of course, we could probably apply that statement to a lot of TCMA's too - but it was the wing chun example that grabbed me after reading Sifu Ross's post.

    So - knowledgeable and open minded friends, I would love to hear your thoughts.

    Thanks

    Jim
    David Williams
    http://www.wingchun.com
    Kim sut, Lok ma, Ting yu, Dung tao, Mai jiang

  11. #41
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    Maybe Ross see's a little of himself in Bruce lee.

    Bruce didn't get complete WC
    Ross didn't get quality traditional MA training

    Bruce tried to "break the mold" of TCMA
    Ross is also trying to break a mold (40 yrs. too late though)

    Bruce saw himself as a innovator
    Ross see's himself as one too

    But you can't be an genuine innovator, if someone has already taken the spot. So he thinks why shouldn't he (ross) get as much fanfare and noteriety as bruce.

    In short, he is just jealous at bruce, and the fame and fortune he reached.

  12. #42
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    O man after

    a couple national sombo (sport and combat) titles
    a couple bjj titles
    a couple state judo titles
    competing in a san shou match with one week of san shou training
    competing in two BAMA shootfights
    competing in several submission tourneys
    still active training

    After all this i'm going to have to redo everything. Alot of what i base my mental game on is the writtings of Bruce Lee. He may be dead but his brain was brillant at the time.

    I respect Ross and for sure his bad ass students, but i wish he would have told me this a little sooner so i could be successful in events instead of my crappy results so far.

    The one thing people don't understand is if u train in more then one martial art your doing what Brue Lee did like it or not. He at the time may have not been the first but he made it popular. He gavce it a name so when people asked him what he trained he didn't have to rattle off fourty names. Not everyone has to have 100 titles to their name to be a great instructor.

    Maybe we should respect someone's mind instead of their "nutsack" level?


    Total Martial Training,Jeet Kune Do,Mixed Martial Arts,Freestyle Martial Arts

    Call it what u want i call it life, and i respect the mental advantages Bruce Lee's writtings have given me. If u don't want them that's fine, one more advantage to me

    Brad Souders
    Tapped Out

  13. #43
    Brad

    Clearly, if Bruce Lee's writings inspired you then more power to them. HOWEVER, I was commenting in response to the Sifu Lama thread which stated stuff like

    1. Bruce Lee was the greatest fighter ever, way beyond "silly" guys like Royce Grace, etc etc blah blah

    AND

    2. Bruce Lee knew more about martial arts than anyone

    Both statements are FALSE and clearly so, but I guess the cult of personality can't accept that. Just like they can't seem to grasp that had he not been a movie star, he would not have had the impact he did

    Here's a quiz for the forum

    Chan Tai San
    Jeng Hsin-Ping
    Wing Hong Yip
    Thomas Yeung
    Adam Hsu
    Daneil Weng
    Wong Tai
    YC Wong

    What do all these people have in common?

    According to "Tit Sa", NONE know any legit Chinese martial arts
    Chan Tai San Book at https://www.createspace.com/4891253

    Quote Originally Posted by taai gihk yahn View Post
    well, like LKFMDC - he's a genuine Kung Fu Hero™
    Quote Originally Posted by Taixuquan99 View Post
    As much as I get annoyed when it gets derailed by the array of strange angry people that hover around him like moths, his good posts are some of my favorites.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    I think he goes into a cave to meditate and recharge his chi...and bite the heads off of bats, of course....

  14. #44
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    i'm with you on the cult thing but i think i may disagree a small amount on him not being as popular in MA without the movies. I know very little about aikido and O Sensei but i have read alot of his material for the grasp and the only movie he could have possibly been in was himself and his wife in a porno in their bedroom mirror
    Tapped Out

  15. #45
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    Originally posted by BAI HE
    http://www.shenwu.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

    If thst doesn't work go to www.shenwwwwu.con, click discussion, use the search function on the left type in "Ip Man" and in the fields below it where they ask " How/Log days type in "300".

    It's worth the hassle for WC guys.
    cool, found it!.
    peace

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