Why do kickboxers have such poor power generation?

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

anyone want to sit in my lap?

[rogue]

Well, how long ago have most here even heard of Hsing-I or Ba Gua?

OK, Laughing Louie is taking a break.

Seriously, there seems to be more efficient ways of generating power. Some guys put a ton of effort and muscle into their strikes with little effect, others hit like trucks with seemingly little effort. So how does someone achieve "refined and efficient" power, and how do some hit like little girls while still putting in 100% effort?

EF, How does Hsing-i and Ba Guas power generation differ from a boxer or other martial artis for that matter?

[Ray Pina]

It's a matter of finding the different body connections and linking them up. Hand and foot should go together (think pushing a car), elbow and knees relate and shoulder and hips. A lot of our work is focused just on this. Walking back and forth, driving off the back leg with our weight going forward but trying to hold the hang time as much as possible, keeping the hands in close. As the leg drives the hands go out. As soon as the hands go out a little, the elbow drives fueled by the shoulder/back ... this relates to the front knee rising as well (a step is a kick, a kick is a step), then the hips should be curled to straighten the back and the shoulders should be giving their all.

I was focused on this practice soley while injured over the summer. I know realise what is meant by "putting your body behind it" Your entire body is quite literally beying the blow and you can see it segment by segment, each guy, doing its part.

There is also the "throw a punch." A lot of people push a punch.

These types of posts always become messy however. If you name a technology everyone is quick to say they have it too, or those that don't dismiss it as "smoke and mirrors" when it's all quite anatomical.

As for Kali. I there was this mean as drunk who loved to play dirty and got the best of me one day. Out of the blue took chi sau to another level without informing me and gave me a good one to the side of the head. I purposely ducked him. He cornered me one day on the boardwalk with my ex and kind of insisted that we chi sau. What do you do in front of your friends who know you study? ... I broke the *******s rib and feel much better about the situation. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one up on the system .... back at ya

[apoweyn]

EFist,

As for Kali. I there was this mean as drunk who loved to play dirty and got the best of me one day. Out of the blue took chi sau to another level without informing me and gave me a good one to the side of the head. I purposely ducked him. He cornered me one day on the boardwalk with my ex and kind of insisted that we chi sau. What do you do in front of your friends who know you study? ... I broke the *******s rib and feel much better about the situation. As far as I'm concerned, I'm one up on the system .... back at ya

I don't understand. Did he practice kali? He was doing chisao. Help?

[apoweyn]

As for power generation, not surprisingly I don't think it really falls along stylistic lines. I do agree with EFist that it has a lot to do with getting things coordinated, everything falling in line in the right order.

But to my mind, that's a question of using equipment training for feedback. And thinking about small variables. Sometimes, I'll study my feet while I'm kicking the heavy bag. Trying to get a sense for what I'm doing when. Maybe I'm inadvertently shifting my base foot back, so I can't get any penetration on the target. Maybe I'm not leading with my hips, like the handle of a whip leads the tip. Little things.

Equipment will generally give me the feedback I need to realize that I have to relax more and not push my punches. Or step before I start my kick. Or whatever.

I think it's mostly a question of listening to the feedback and manipulating variables.


Stuart B.

[rogue]

I think that power generation is also effected by what you can get away with. A simple thing like being slightly unbalanced can drain a lot of power from a punch or a kick. I think EFs "It's a matter of finding the different body connections and linking them up." is such an easy concept but can be difficult to achieve.

[apoweyn]

I think EFs "It's a matter of finding the different body connections and linking them up." is such an easy concept but can be difficult to achieve.

Amen on both counts.

[Ray Pina]

Apow, yes, he was studying Kali for about 3 years in Queens when this happened but had 10 years Wing Chun before that. My beef was with him, not Kali, but I often take offense to I don't mind disagree with me, but when someone gives me the roll eyes over the net it drives me insane.

And yes, it is very simple in concept and quite something else to find and coordinate these things. This is the value of internal martial arts, too me.

I've been kicking bags and kicking sparring partners now for about as long as I've been tying my own shoes (no joke). "Hitting harder" and "hitting faster" can only be taken so far externally. I learned this when a "weaker", "older" guy kicked my a$$ about three years ago and led me to my master. He was quicker and stronger but I knew he wasn't.

Odd, I find doing this research in the air is actually more valauable. To get your weight going forward, and hang their while driving off the back leg builds up control and hang time. So later, when you have to change, or follow the guy with a kick (think Ba Gua circle walking) you have the ability to. If you're resting on another object, you don't feel each and every inch.

Of course their are certain drills that do require two people. MA are actually funny to talk and write about. Because I find discrepencies. Bruce Lee is famous for saying, after he "mastered" his technique a punch is just a punch. True! But not all punches are equal. So is a punch just a punch?

In one instance I may insist that one has to be forceful, drive off the bag leg and insist on their technique. Then, later, I can say that sort of attitude can get you killed. What, do you think you're the strongest man alive?

Funny, huh?

[apoweyn]

EFist,

Apow, yes, he was studying Kali for about 3 years in Queens when this happened but had 10 years Wing Chun before that. My beef was with him, not Kali, but I often take offense to I don't mind disagree with me, but when someone gives me the roll eyes over the net it drives me insane.

Am I misreading this? Because I didn't give you the rolly eyes. [I can't believe I just typed that.]

And I'm not offended on the behalf of kali. Kali has just as many goofballs running around in it as any other style.

That said, you brought this story up in direct response to a reference to kali. And yet the story has absolutely nothing to do with kali. It's about a guy with more than three times the experience in wing chun as in kali doing something directly wing chun related.

Is it any wonder that I was a bit confused?


Stuart B.

[yenhoi]

It's a matter of finding the different body connections and linking them up. Hand and foot should go together (think pushing a car), elbow and knees relate and shoulder and hips. A lot of our work is focused just on this. Walking back and forth, driving off the back leg with our weight going forward but trying to hold the hang time as much as possible, keeping the hands in close. As the leg drives the hands go out. As soon as the hands go out a little, the elbow drives fueled by the shoulder/back ... this relates to the front knee rising as well (a step is a kick, a kick is a step), then the hips should be curled to straighten the back and the shoulders should be giving their all.

Didnt I read this in the Tao of Jeet Kune Do? Or maybe it was Jack Dempseys Novel. You cheater.

In Kali we use our hands like knives and slice and dice. No other style has this technology. Some will jump at this chance to say "we have it to" - but they dont.

[Ray Pina]

Apow, I know it wasn't you that shot the now infamous "rolley eyes." I was just adressing your question about Kali.

The guys is actually not a bad MA. And three years of serious training is a long time. I have about 10 years of Isshin-Ryu and 5 of HUng Gar, WIng CHun and S. MAntis but look nothing like that after 3 years of internal.

Anyway, Yenhoi, what I posted is a Hsing-fundamental. Those are the three External connections (hand and foot, elbow and knee, hip and shoulders). There are also three internal.

I don't mean to sound so argumentative, but it's a busy day at work and I've lost my patience with this board somewhat. Anything that differs from Shoalin or UFC thinking is viewed as smoke and mirrors or unrealistic and I'm tired of saying the earth is round. There's a handful of guys on here I'd feel priveledged to match hands with, and I'm sure they know who they are.

[Ray Pina]

Please find me a copy of what you claim I have stolen.

Also, this is the problem with your art: In fact your hands are not knives, so your slicing motions lack depth and penetrating power. While you guys have fast hands and know how to roll the elbow while controlling, if you find the above information it will solve this problem.

We tend to smash, clobber and pound... the fist is more suitable for this.

[fa_jing]

Originally posted by EvolutionFist
It takes time, but I believe there is a generation emerging right now that will bring this out and I believe it will invoke another martial revolution not unlike the Gracies.

Time will prove me right or wrong.

I agree for the most part. I don't think that it will be much of a revolution, but I think 20 years from now you will find many fight sport combatants training in CMA methods. I'm not saying that CMA will dominate but it will be used to enough extent that there won't be these same doubts about the effectiveness of CMA.

It's just a matter of the information reaching the right people.

[ShaolinTiger00]

<- just for the title alone...

too funny.

[David Jamieson]

what makes for a good punch or kick with optimum power and less "physical" effort?

alignment- your bone structure has a natural alignment that allows for correct input or output of power.

breath - your breathing determines how much power you lose or expend.

musculature - bones are driven by muscles, muscle and bone is angled to alignment by tendon. You have to have strength to generate power but you don't have to overdo it to be highly effective in your striking capability.

root - to be firm in stance is to complete half your efforts. A strong ladder can be climbed more often than a rickety one without worrying about the alignment of it breaking with the energy placed upon it.

a couple of things to think about. tie a stone to a rope, how much effort does it take to swing the rope? How much force is output when the stone strikes?

a hammer is best used when gripped at the end and letting the weight of the hammer do the work. Think of muscles in this case, the more tension in them, the less force they can expel.

Brute force is definitely not the road to being a better striker. Brute force is only of any use to guys who are large, and even then, it is harder to evade and repel and deflect someone who is "soft" than someone who is rigid.


CMA and of course other MA has many methods that work towards these ends and many analogies to help the person understand the concepts and ideas behind them.

Depends on how you can get the lessons to translate through your body.

cheers