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Thread: Some thoughts on the term Shuaishou

  1. #1
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    Smile Some thoughts on the term Shuaishou

    On the other thread, there was mentioning of Jut Sow (Shuaishou in Mandarin). This term is pretty interesting in that some suggest it is a specific style of mantis. I have done a little looking into where this term could possibly come from. What I found is that there were at least 3 major PM GMs who came down to HK to teach Kung Fu. They were Luo Guangyu (7 Stars), Chui Chuk Kai (Taiji), and Bao Guangying (Meihwa). It is believe that GM Bao wrote a Quanpu with the title "Meihua Shuaishou Tanglang Tupu"
    (pictorial Manual on Plum Blossom Throwing Hand Praying Mantis). Here's a link to the cover of the manuiscript in the collection of Quanpu of Shifu Ilya Profatilov:

    http://www.traditionalmantisboxing.com/pu8.jpg

    Please note that my translation is slightly different that Shifu Profatilov's.

    GM Bao, who was once an escort security guard, was from Yantai, Shandong. His first styles was Taizu Changquan and later he studied Meihwa Tanglang (possibly Jiang Hualong's lineage). It is believe that his teaching, at least theory wise, are closer to Changquan than to Tanglang. Could the Shuaishou designation meant to point that difference out? That we will have investigate more. Could he be somehow an acquintance of GM Li Kwan Shan of Wah Lum PM? Anyway, it would seem that there is a relationship between Meihwa (Tanglang) and Shuaishou (?). We just have to figure it out what exactly that relationship is.

    Any comments regarding Meihwa Shuaishou is welcomed.

    Mantis108
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  2. #2
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    Since this thread has only one post I decided to ressurect it for discussion.

    Being that GM Bao was once an escort security guard it seems likely that GM Lee Kwan Shan may have known him.

    It's iinteresting to see the translation as 'swinging arms' mantis since Wah Lum does contain quite a bit of swinging arms.

  3. #3
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    Smile

    Hi Hualin,

    Thanks for reviving this thread. If not for Yu Shan and you, I would have forgotten this completely.

    I think I will start will bringing in the other thread started by Sayloc about the development of Mantis.

    First off, I am not sure whether the article was really by GM Wei himself or it is a conversation recorded by one of his students. I don't want to get into the politics, so please look at the following comment as random thoughts not meant as anything but simply personal opinion.

    I read part of an article by Wei Hsiao Tang on an 8 step web site that stated that the Northern mantis system started with:

    Bi Men ( Mi Men)

    then

    Shuai Shou (wrestling hands)

    then

    having seven star being developed in the early 1900's
    I would think this is more true in addressing the situation in southern China (ie Nanjing) and later Taiwan. It is of note that Seven Star is a designation that once was actually describing some Meihwa lines that was in Taiwan. It has caused a lot of confusion but lately it starting to clear up again. We now pretty much know that Mimen is from Taiji/Meihwa lines. Shuai Shou is also another Meihwa line that came south. Babu, brian child of Jiang Hualong, is no doubt one of the Taiji/Meihwa lines spin offs. The confusion of Meihwa lines being 7 stars in Taiwan happens arround the time Wang Han Xun's publications available in Taiwan. So this sounds to me that GM Wei (if this is really his thoughts) that he would be addressing the Tanglang development in Taiwan situation. Of course, I could be dead wrong.

    My questions are:

    Is it true that seven star was developed in the early 1900's?
    It is generally believe that Wang Yun Sheng (1854 - 1926) was the founder of 7 star lines. He's the first to use the Qixing designation so the time frame seems to fit the early 1900's.

    Is this wrestling hands system really older than seven star?[
    IMHO the wrestling hands translation seems to be off. I believe that Shuai Shou refers to the Tongbi element Shuai (throw) which mainly is a back hand smack to the nose. Shuai here is a striking oriented rather than a grappling oriented. I believe Shuai Shou is a designation to reflect the blending of an actual Tongbi style with Meihwa Tanglang line. This might happened as early as Jia Hsing reign in Qing dynasty.

    Where can I find information on the wrestling hands system?
    Most of the information available on this could be found on Chinese MA forums. So it would help if you read Chinese.

    hope this helps.

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
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    Thanks for your time 108

    Do you think that there is or ever was a system such as hua lins wrestling hands?

    Do you think this wrestling hands system may have been absorbed into another mantis system and the original wrestling hands as a system by itself disappeared? The hua lin is a good example of this. I have read that it contains the core elements of a mantis system (wrestling hands?) but no complete sets from that system.

    Is the open hand backfist you are talking about the same as in the first few moves of chi shou?

    I have been told that the chi shou form was originally a wrestling hands praying mantis system form, but now that I read your post I think they may have been referring to the backfist technique you had mentioned. What do you think sir.

    Do you know af a chart that starts out with what is considered the beginnning mantis system and goes down the list with what spins off into what?

    I never realized untill recently how much the different systems are entwined.

    Sorry to ask so much of you

    Have a good day
    Last edited by sayloc; 01-23-2005 at 04:33 PM.

  5. #5
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    sayloc
    "The hua lin is a good example of this. I have read that it contains the core elements of a mantis system (wrestling hands?) but no complete sets from that system."

    Wah Lum's Big Mantis is, indeed, a version of Bung Bo. That would mean at least one set survived intact. Along with that set Wah Lum has a Luan Jie but how close it is to other branches I can't say as I've never seen it performed.

    Wah Lum also has a Tong Long Juk Dung (Mantis Exits Cave?) but again I haven't seen it performed.

    I can say that our Da and Xiao Fan Cha are completely different than other branches. Also, it's possible Little Mantis was passed on from the original Jut Sow system although it seems to be a variation of Iron Door Bolt. Tainan Mantis can speak more on the history of that set. I don't believe it's found in other branches of Mantis.


    BTW, Big Mantis contains a back hand slap like you mentioned.

  6. #6
    Greetings,

    Your thread rings a bell. I remember going to a martial arts store over ten years ago to check out some books. During that time I was pretty fixated on Tan Tui and had always wanted to see the Wah Lum version. I went there looking for something on Wah Lum and the dealer let it slip that this style was also known as Plum Flower Praying Mantis: they are one and the same.

    I hope this helps.

    mickey

    P.S.: Ask Grandmaster Chan. If this man knew this so matter of factly, Grandmaster Chan should definitely know. The man is still in his body. Ask him.
    Last edited by mickey; 01-23-2005 at 06:55 PM.

  7. #7
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    Originally posted by sayloc
    I have been told that the chi shou form was originally a wrestling hands praying mantis system form, but now that I read your post I think they may have been referring to the backfist technique you had mentioned.
    It is said that the Lipi Form of Babu Tanglang was also part of the Shaishou system. Apparently, Grandmaster Wei Xiaotang learned Shuaishou Tanglang in his youth and later incorporated Lipi in his Babu curriculum.

    Dunno if it's true, just my 2 cents.
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  8. #8
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    mickey
    Considering that Master Chan is the one stating that Wah Lum's mantis comes from Jut Sow I don't think asking him will change anything. Plus I'll get hollered at for being mun jai.

    Not to argue but just because a book dealer seems to think it's Plum Flower doesn't mean anything unless he has some evidence to back the claim. Maybe he thought they were the same because they both have hua in the name.

  9. #9
    Hua Lin Laoshi,

    My impression was that this guy knew Grandmaster Chan. I have to narrow downthe time frame when he said that. It was closer to 18 years ago. This guy used to own a restaurant down in Florida: around the same time the Wah Lum Temple opened.

    I have noticed that there are two ways of naming a style: an illustrious way and a literal way. For example, I have heard of the Tai Sheng Pi Kua Men style refered to as Five Monkey Pi Kua. A style that would combine Wu Mei with Tai chi may beget the name the Ferocious Demon Style. Purists would simply call it Wu Mei Tai Chi. In this regard Shuai Shou MAY have a another name: Tong Pei Mei Hua or Mei Hua Tong Pei. I suggest this because it the reference to Wah Lum's Tam Tui style being based on the moves of the ape. Additionally, I have read that the Tong Pei stylists also believe that Tam Tui/Tan Tui comes from them. Now that is an interesting circle.

    mickey

  10. #10
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    Smile Great going...

    Some very interesting info popping up already. Thanks Laviathan. So now we might be looking at:

    Qishou (7 hands)
    Lipi (powerly chop)

    both could have been adopted from Shuai Shou or Meihwa Shuaishou Tanglang. The only to prove this is to look into MHSS' curriculum. There are 2 places that might yield the answer - Beijing and Guangdong where GM Bao had sojourned and taught.

    I think Mickey has a good point in the naming of systems too.

    Back to Sayloc's post:

    Thanks for your time 108

    Do you think that there is or ever was a system such as hua lins wrestling hands?
    You are most welcome, my friend.

    It is believed that there were monks practicing a style of Tanglang (possibly throwing hands) in the Hualin Temple that suffered serious damage. So only oral tradition of that exists for now. BTW, please note that I don't think there was a system mix of Shuai Jiao (Chinese wrestling) and Tanglang ever happened or at least up to now. Babu Tanglang seems to be the one the claims that. Even so, that would make the time frame somewhere around 1900s. This is why I use the term throwing hand instead of wrestling hands. Perhaps wrestling hands as a term is more descriptive to Babu's dynamics. I don't think that would apply easily to the dynamics of Hualin today. Throwing hand, that of Tongbi origin would be more fitting to Hualin's dynamics IMHO.

    Do you think this wrestling hands system may have been absorbed into another mantis system and the original wrestling hands as a system by itself disappeared? The hua lin is a good example of this. I have read that it contains the core elements of a mantis system (wrestling hands?) but no complete sets from that system.
    Actually, this is a crucial question and I am glad that you asked. I believe that throwing hand/wrestling hand would be another name or a branch of Tongbi (through the arm) system which is a Qing dynasty (1644-1911 CE) term for the Pigua system noted in the General Qi's book. This means it is independent of other system such as Tanglang. There are some old Quanpu about the Tongbi system available including the Shaolin Authentics of Hsing Hsiao Dao Ren which is quite controversal IMHO. In that Quanpu, you would find evidences or rather efforts of Tongbi and Tanglang blending together. But it is rather controversal as the origin of the Shaolin Authentics can not be proven with historical facts.

    As for the example of Hualin, it is a good point. However, what exactly is Tanglang as a system? What exactly is the principle portion or technical portion? Are the core elements contained in a few forms, application/combinations, or in something else such as the Gong or drills? Are these individually enough to claim there is mantis in the system. If there were no actual form, how can we tell it was/is mantis? Now how do we account for the 6 or so Hualin "mantis" forms that are floating out there?

    If I were to say "it is possible that there were actual mantis form (perhaps different flavor, slightly different arrangements, etc.) in Hualin, but it has been evolving to a point that only traces of it can be found if we examin it closely", is this fair to the practitioners of Hualin style? So I believe everything beyond those questions above is at best speculations until someone steps forward from Hualin truthly and meaningfully shared the "real" mantis that was inbedded in the Hualin. All we can do is give it the benefit of the doubt and keep working on it with those who are willing to share.

    Is the open hand backfist you are talking about the same as in the first few moves of chi shou?"

    I have been told that the chi shou form was originally a wrestling hands praying mantis system form, but now that I read your post I think they may have been referring to the backfist technique you had mentioned. What do you think sir.
    Well, I think the whole form has the "shuai" attribute. But that's just me. Try the moves with "putting your back into it". You will see what I mean.

    Do you know af a chart that starts out with what is considered the beginnning mantis system and goes down the list with what spins off into what?
    Not that I can think of one readily available. There is a chart found in Ilya Profatilov's article that I think would be a good start to develop a timeline of evolution of Tanglang Pugilism.

    I never realized untill recently how much the different systems are entwined.
    Well, I think Kung Fu is about evolution. We can actually use anthropological discipline to help solve many of the mysteries in Kung Fu history IMHO.

    Hope this answer some of your questions

    Warm regards

    Mantis108
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    妙着。


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  11. #11
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    These are some great posts! Keep them coming.

    I would like to thank every one for sharing.



    It seems that the time frame from the late 1800's to around 1930 or so was a time that a few new styles of mantis were created including the hua lin, 7 * and Ba Bu. This seems to have been a very busy time for Mantis practitioners.

    Am I right with this assumption?

    Have a good day

  12. #12
    mantis108,

    There is a THIRD place where you may want to consider looking if you may want to get RARE look at pre 1949 Mei Hua Praying Mantis: KOREA. A lot of martial arts practitioners from Shandong Province escaped to Korea during the Communist takeover. If the practitioners are still there, it is almost as good as going back in time.

    Roger Hagood, former editor of Martial Arts of China, studied this branch of Praying Mantis while he was in Korea. The photos he shared with the readers suggested a style that required a lot of flexibility.


    mickey
    Last edited by mickey; 01-24-2005 at 04:22 PM.

  13. #13
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    My Wu Tang instructor recently told me that we have three forms from Shuaishou Tanglangquan in our curriculum: Praying Mantis Hands, Take the Helmet and Inserting Fist.
    I am currently studying Take the Helmet (摘 盔 - Zhāi Kuī). The movements seem to be characteristic of Mantis and Long Fist. Very different from the Hong Kong based Seven Star Mantis I have practiced.
    Richard A. Tolson
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