Do most fights go to the ground?

[ying jow]

I started studying Judo about 3 years ago to get a grappling base for my Kung Fu. I have noticed many people do fall while sparring in Kung Fu and thought that I would like to be as prepared as possible for that situation so I went to a school that focuses strictly on grappling. I continued with my Kung Fu training as well.

What I have found that it is nearly impossible as a beginner to take a good judoka down. So what I concluded was that the reason people fall is not because it is inevitable it is because they don't have the balance they need when engaged with an opponent.

But here is the part that people don't like to hear. I can show you how to keep from being taken down. But, until you randori for countless hours avoiding the takedowns you will still be taken down. When people try to take you down you have to be able to feel it before you see it in order to be able to stop it. So you see, you have to get in there with these grapplers and learn thier game if you want to have any chance of stopping it. You don't have to become an expert at it, but you have to be able to know and identify what they are trying to do in order to put up a decent defence against it.

[jimmy23]

I agree,IMHO about athird of fights go to the ground naturally,unless one or both fighters want to go to ground,in which case the number leaps to 80%Most of the people here who disparage grounfighting are just angry because after getting good at stand up they dont have the perserverance to be a beginner again.Pride,my frind,is a killer for a fighter.So they say things like "My ultra spinning nerve pinch will render groundwork useless".This is equivelent to saying "My full nelson will make all stand up fighting useless".Cingrats on crosstraining ,and keep it up

[Sihing73]

I am sorry to disagree that "most" fights go to the ground. I guess I am just one of those angry people who has spent his time learning the stand up game [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] Considering I had a Black Belt in Judo when I was 13 years old and competed in several state and regional level competitions I feel a little secure in giving my opinion. I have also worked as a Correctional Officer, A Police Officer in the Projects of Philadelphia, A peace Officer in New York City and as a Pa State Trooper. I have also married outside of my race and been the only White person in several rather unsavory neighborhoods. Trust me, I have had several fights, many serious. I can not think of any that went ot he ground. Sorry, maybe I am the exception but those claiming the ground is where we all end up in a real fight need a reality check. If you want to roll around on the ground while fighiting in the street then more power to you. Personaly I would rather not take the chance of getting cut by broken glass nor being pounded into concrete. Not to metnion the possibility of my opponents "friends" jumping in to help him, and don't even think about adding the element of a weapon.

Listen, there is nothing wrong with crosstraining. There is also nothing wrong with learning how to fight on the ground. However, please get some statistics to bake up all of these inflated claims of 1/3 of all fights going to the ground or 80% or whatever figure you want to use. In all honesty if you advocate groundfighting then that is where you will claim fights will end up. Likewise for those practicing striking. Taking someone to the ground is not always that easy. While attending the Pa State Police Academy we had a PT Instructor. This guy was huge and a former boxer. Well, he got into BJJ and thought that was the end all of all arts. To make a long story short he tried to take me to the ground on several occassions and could not do so. Now I weigh about 180lbs and this guy weighed at least 230-240. His arms were as big as my things [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] and he was in shape. If he had trouble taking me down, and considering the fact that none of my "real" fights ended on the ground I think you can understand my skepticism.

I again have nothing against crosstraining. I even think that history supports the idea. But, by making claims of this number or that number of fights go to the gorund you become as guilty of the same narrow vision as strikers are accused of. In a fight with rules and a nice soft mat the grappler has an advantage. On the street, the last place I want to be is on the ground. If I do end up there you can bet my first priority will be to get back on my feet.

Peace,

Dave

[jjj]

>> Do most fights go to the ground? <<

No, that is just marketing hype started by the Gracie$. Real fights never never ever go to the ground. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

But seriously, sometimes they do. Does it happen most of the time? Hard to say one way or the other. Is the risk significant enough to be concerned about? I think so.

[ying jow]

Sihing,

You actually proved my point when you said you have a black belt in judo. All I was saying is that if a person has been trained in some sort of grappling system especially judo or wrestling they are extremely difficult to take down. Therefore what I was trying to point out is that it is mostly people who haven't had some sort of training that are falling down.

I beleive some sort of wrestling should be incorporated into all standup systems just to learn how not to be taken down. I also think if you never go live with a wrestler you will not be ready for the explosive entry that they will come at you with.

You must admit that your Judo background has to have something to do with these people not being able to take you down.

[Tai Mai Shu]

Buddy if you are fighting me then rest assured, it'll ALWAYS go to the ground, hehe. But seriously though it doesn't matter if most fights go to the ground or stay on the feet. You shouldn't train to merely be prepared for most fights. You should train to be prepared for ALL fights. A fight can be anything. Do 95% of all fights really end up on the ground? Hell if I know. Is there a big enough possibility for us to really worry about it? Definitely. Assuming that you guys do not look upon ground fighting as your preferred strategy, then if you do end up on the ground in a street situation then it is usually because you have been put there and are in a disadvantaged situation (ex. a big guy might be on top pounding you or be dragging you down in a side headlock). In such desperate circumstances, if you are unfamiliar with the science of groundfighting then believe you me...you are screwed. I personally prefer the ground strategy because when you're a good groundfighter its simply much easier to force your typical opponent into your game and control the situation especially since most guys out there don't have a clue as to how to fight effectively on the ground. I'm not saying that groundfighting is the best or more important than stand up fighting, but it is the most applicable.

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Is that your chi I smell??

[LEGEND]

I BELIEVE MOST FIGHTS GO TO THE GROUND BECAUSE MOST PEEPS CAN'T FIGHT!!!...It is true...most of us have trained to fight standup...kung fu, muy thai, boxing, full contact karate etc...against a normal JOE...then the guy would be KO in secs! The average JOE fighting the average JOE would throw haymakers...maybe KO someone...most of the time end up grappling! BJJ guys took the step further by simply skipping the standup fighting route and hitting the ground with opponents! It is now address to all competent MMA that both standup fighting and ground fighting works in real fights! In the NHB world you have to know both to win or survive...otherwise...one or the other is fine...

[jimmy23]

the numbers i threw out were my observations,certainly not anything authoritative.Just giving my opinion [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

[benny]

i dont think most fights go to ground but thats only my experience. i have ahd only one and thats because i let him get off the ground and as i was walking away he grabbed my hair and throw me to the ground andstarted hitting me.
i agree that if kf people are falling over in fights its usually because their stance isnt what it should be. i can say that once someone who knew what they were doing got me on the ground i would be a pretzel but i have tryed against some bjj people and i have found ways of stoping them but if i let them get a hold of me im in big trouble. i just got videos to show how they use leverage and the way our joints move against us. so if i can think quickly(a major problem with me) i usually cant get out of it but it doesnt hurt me( but not all the time **** an armbar hurts)
see ya
THE MORE YOU SWEAT IN PEACE
THE LESS YOU BLEED IN WAR

[Tru-MA]

I've read articles and stuff about all of this, and I'll also have to disagree about fights going to the ground that much. I value cross-training very much and I am planning to take BJJ myself soon, but from all of the fights that I've actually seen and been in, there was only ONE fight where the fighters went to the ground. Guess what? Their friends jumped in, stomped and kicked 'em. I would say that from MY experience, in watching and being in real street fights that about 1% of the fights end up on the ground (please bear in mind that this is from my experience). I think that ground fighting is important, but not as important as grapplers and martial artists claim. Grapplers are amazing one-on-one fighters (I know, I lost a lot against them), but I have yet to see one fight a group of enemies while in the mount or guard positions. I usually fight more than one enemy at a time in my fights (I guess because I can go insane when I'm mad).

[bean curd]

all arts have their own flavour, and we all know this, so art knocking is not the issue, crosstraining is not the issue. does the fight go to the ground, is the question, and i am also an advicate, that from my own experiance, not once have they gone to ground.

in a controlled enviroment, all things are possable, but in real life, there are to many variables that come up, seen and unseen.

for myself, to go to ground, is dangerous, as it has been already said, it's not the one your fighting that's the problem, it his mates who are with him

anyone here that has either been a controller at a club or experianced a situation in a similiar enviroment, will understand what i have said.

for myself, i believe ground fighting is a terrific art, with many attributes, however, like i said, to go to ground in an uncontrolled enviroment, is really asking for trouble

well my 2 cents worth.

peace

[molum_jr]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tru-MA:
I've read articles and stuff about all of this, and I'll also have to disagree about fights going to the ground that much. I value cross-training very much and I am planning to take BJJ myself soon, but from all of the fights that I've actually seen and been in, there was only ONE fight where the fighters went to the ground. Guess what? Their friends jumped in, stomped and kicked 'em).[/quote]

Ditto. The street fights I've seen has one guy being bent or down, and then the backup rushes in w/a blade or weapon. As an additional backup, there is always someone in the back ground who is packing a gun.

[ToughKey]

Well go do your own examinations. Examine all military style hand-to hand combat arts that were actually used and tested on the batterfield. Some examples are Aikijujitsu (used by the samarais), ninjitsu, bajiquan (used by bodyguards) 108 chin-na techniques of eagle claw (created by chinese general), krav maga (used by israeli special forces) and various types of battlefield arts used by various countries around the world. All are predominantly stand-up fighting arts with just some or no groundfighting. Now examine all arts with a lot of groundfighting, either 50 percent or more like judo, jujitsu, sambo, wrestling, and shootfighting (muay thai/wrestling hybrid). Now upon your examination you will find that 99 percent of the time, styles with 50 percent or more groundfighting were created for and evolved as a tournament sport. Judo, jujitsu, wrestling, sambo, and shootfighting-- all created for sport, and was never used on the battefield. Judo and jijutsu, where a majority of the techniques can only be done if the opponent is wearing a "gi" uniform, is definitely a competition sport. Same thing applies to russian "jacket wrestling" known as sambo. What exactly is so different in a tournament type NHB arena, and out on the battlefield? I don't have a clear cut answer. I can just tell by researching the different types of arts and what they were created for and how they were used that there is a difference.

[jimmy23]

Actually,jujutsu was created for RL combat vs armed opponents.Knowing how dangerous a samurai in full armor was,the idea was to get him off his feet where his weapon was useless and his armor a hindrance.
Now,TK,I agree,the ground is to be avoided at all costs on the street,if possible.A lot of good posts have been made about why we should all crosstrain,so i wont go into that.
I believe that,including the friends factor,the biggest reason to not ground a RL fight is that it immobilizes you.You never know when ya may need to run(my personal favorite combat skill).
I long for the day when this will be a moot discussion and all martial artists will do things the old way,which means being ready for any situation and knowing when to ground a fight or keep it up

[Brat]

I think that the real problem with martial artists being so easily dropped to the ground is that in Amertica stance training has been downplayed. I saw a Kuk Sool Wan master from Korea fend off over 1/2 dozen Judo blacks belts, each one in turn trying to take him to the ground. He was so firmly rooted that they were unable to move him. My Judo instructor also would tout that most fights would end up on the ground but I have observes otherwise. Most fights I have seen have occured in bars and have amounted to slugfests that lasted a mere few seconds. I think the ground mentality has played well into the hands of Americans as in the past 50 years western stand up sports such as boxing have suffered popularity while sports such as wrestling have boomed.(How many high schools do you know that offer boxing as opposed to wrestling.)
Only a very skilled and controled opponent can turn a groundfight into a victory for himself(for example if he's down on his back). You have to keep your head stay calm as when you are wrestling you will burn up far more energy than if you are standup fighting. Brazilian Ju Jitsu does have it's merrits-women who might find themselves in such a position during a sexual assault could be able to use the techniques to save themselves.
But honestly, in REAL life, in my real fights(5) I have not faced anyone who knew how to throw an effective punch let alone have admirable ground skills. The guys I was mixing it up with were one move wonders-the sucker move guys. In our training we should train as if we would someday face an opponent of greater than or equal skill, but realize that it will probably never happen.
On one last note, I have watched quite a few bar scraps and can say that I have never seen any ground tactics or takedowns attempted as the parties involved were usually too afraid of getting that close as the infighting range is where you can suffer the most striking damage. But it can always happen-anything can. But in my experience, any guy with 6 months boxing experience can usually hold his own against most of the would be badasses that he will meet on the street or in a bar grappling skills or not.