Do most fights go to the ground?

[Buhma]

NM

[This message has been edited by Buhma (edited 08-09-2000).]

[Brat]

Knifefighter...
As far as the statement, "I saw a Kuk Sool Wan master from
Korea fend off over 1/2 dozen Judo blacks belts, each one in turn trying to take him to the ground.
He was so firmly rooted that they were unable to move him." Yeah, right. Give me a break.

Well, you just had to be there I guess scince I WAS one of those blackbelts. Just as we would have to be there to validate all the "NHB, steel cage," and whatever else youre claiming. Knifefighter, if you are as experienced as you claim to be you seem to be awful closeminded to anything that has do do with anything but grappling. If you will recall a few weeks ago I posted about a minor scap I was in at a local club. I successfully struck my way out of the situation saving my friend and myself against the barbarism of a 6'1" thug who had a warrant out for his arrest. Hey I know that I can't prove this happened with mere words just as you can't with yours. but I was there and it did happen. This was fight number 5 for me and I have yet to go to the ground in any of them. I hold a 2nd Dan in Juo, I could have taken him to the ground as easily as you could have but chose not to because such fighting burns up energy like crazy. And the fight lasted a mere 3 seconds as opposed to however long it would have taken me to submit him.
My point-I have been in the martial arts for 16 years now. I have seen a lot of things that have more often than not blurred my thinking or caused me to reevaluate what I already believed. My Sifu says that an open mind is a hallmark of a true Master and wise men speak because they have something to say, a fool speaks because he has to say something. What does that say about you Knifefighter?

[MaFuYee]

i heard that 90% of all statistics are made up.

[Knifefighter]

Brat:
I believe very strongly in the striking aspect of a well rounded fighting game and train and fight accordingly. I also know the power of a good grappling game. I too have been in the martial arts for many years- over 20 now- and have had to reevaluate my thinking many times. However, based on all my experience, I still stand by my original skepticism. I am open minded, but not a fool. If someone can prove something to me then I will be convinced, but I have just seen too many people who "cannot be taken down" get humiliated after making that statement.

It’s funny how Olympic gold medalists in judo and wrestling cannot prevent the takedown, but some no-name "master" from Korea could stop an attack by five judokas. Maybe that (and your 5 fights that stayed standing) says something about your takedown abilities, rather than his ability to stop it. As far as finishing with grappling in 3 seconds, can you say suplex, flying arm bar, double leg slam, osotogari, or rolling knee bar? To tell you the truth, I doubt very much that you are a second dan in judo, as you should know how quick and devastating judo throws can be on the street.


[This message has been edited by Knifefighter (edited 08-09-2000).]

[LEGEND]

brat...you sound like you're exaggerating alot of what you're saying...I agree with KNIFEFIGHTER...I don't see how a korean master was holding off 6 bb in judo...is this an exhibition or real fight???

[jimmy23]

IMHO.all it takes to "uproot" a guy is to bear hug him,lift, and slam(esp from behind).Maybe the master couldnt be pushed,but did even one of the black belts attempt to just pick him up?As a grappler,you should know that if you get a guy even one inch off the ground the throw is cake.I think some of the anti grappling people just dont listen when wwe say that ALL aspects should be developed.It seems to me that there is a lot of defensiveness there.
I would also note that old time strong men did similar feats where several grown men couldnt push them.

[jjj]

Good point about lifting, my coach used to say you have to lift a good wrestler up before you can take him down.

[jojitsu27]

I boxed and trained Wing Chun for 10 years before learning grappling, and as a long time striker I can tell you it is true. Over around 90% of all fights do go to the ground for one reason or another.
I was in the Marines for 5 years, and have been in many, many bar fights and rumbles that break out amongst drunken sailors and marines at the e-clubs, and if you knew how to wrestle you would win a good 99% of those fights.
Even in the fights I've seen and participated in on the street (I grew up in a low income neighborhood) most fights went right to the ground.
In my experience it is advisable to train primarily for grappling, and train striking secondary if you want to train realistically.
I was a hand to hand combat instructor for the Marine Corps and it was amazing how many fights between suppossed "Strikers" went right to the ground.
Remember the fight between to so called master strikers of Wing Chun Kung Fu? A guy called Emin Bostepe attacked a senior student of Yip Man's named William Chung. Guess what.....the fight went right to the ground!
Sorry, but guys who say the majority of fights don't go to the ground either haven't been in as many fights as they like to portray on the internet, or are backing the agenda of their stand-up martial art, which means they would want people to think that their art is the most important for a real fight because it is striking only.


ps: killah-b, I was a counselor at an institution for troubled youth and around 99% of all the fights that happened on a daily basis there for the 4 years I worked there went to the ground.

-jojitsu27

[This message has been edited by jojitsu27 (edited 08-10-2000).]

[Braden]

Brat -

Concerning your master friend who was so firmly rooted he couldn't be taken down - surely you mean that he countered all the takedowns, rather than relying on "rooting" in the kungfu sense.

I just want to clarify so readers don't get the wrong idea.

[Sihing73]

jojitsu27,

While I respect your right to your own opinion I have to disagree with you. Of course, I have not been in as many fights as I portray [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img] and I am only trying to shore up the poor reputation of my art of Wing Chun [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

It may very well be true that, in your experience, most fights went to the ground. However, my experience has been the exact opposite. Perhaps, you are trying to shore up your chosen art of grappling. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

To give a little background; I was in the Army and served for a time with a Ranger Unit. After leaving the Military I worked mostly security work before entering Law Enforcement. I worked as a Correctional Officer, and even served as Defensive Tactics Instructor for the prison. I worked in New YOrk City as a Peace Officer, similar to a Housing Officer with arrest/police powers limited to a specific geographic area. I then returned to Philadelphia and worked as a Housing Police Officer after which I joined the Pennsylvania State Police. I have had the opportunity to train with several "tactical" units and even given defenisve and edged weapon instruction to some.

Based on my "experience" most fights do not go to the ground. Sorry, not in my experience. Ast o not having participated in many "real" fights. I would be glad to show you the many scars I have accumulated over the years. Guess what, the reason I have scars is that many of my opponenets had weapons. The last place I wanted to be was on the ground. Notwithstanding the fact that oftentimes more than one person was involved.

Do street fights go to the ground? Yes, sometimes. Is groundfighting a valuable asset to add to ones arsenal? Again, yes. Is grappling the ultimate answer to every situation? No, no more than striking is the answer to every situation.

My previous posts still stand. My view is that one should delve into the art of thier choice because they like it and it meets their needs. If ground fighting is the thing you enjoy then do it. Likewise if striking. But, no art holds a monopoly on effective techniques nor is it the answer to all questions.

The topic of this post Was Do all or most fights go to the ground. The answer is no and perhaps yes. Depends on your perception and your circumstances. In my experience most fights DO NOT go to the ground. Your experience may be different but consider this, most law enoforcement agencies train not for groundfighting but for control and to a lesser extent striking. Must be a reason. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

Peace,

Dave

[Sung]

i hear that 90% of americans chose jif and 4 out of 5 dentists chew trident.

[Dragon Warrior]

The problem with groundfighting in the street is simple. In the street there are no rules. You can be trying to get someone into an armbar and he can start biting you. We have to remember that sport jusjitsu is a sport just like boxing and taekwondo. im not saying it cant be used, im just saying it works well with rules. Once those rules are eliminated, they lose alot of techniques that may have worked before. The best thing to do is to learn how to defend yourself on the ground with no rules, learn what kind of groundfighting you can use without getting bit, or getting struck in the groin, etc.

[SifuAbel]

So far we have experienced people leaning in opposite directions. The ultimate point here is that a good fighter takes the fight were he wants it to go. If he wants it on the ground he will do his best to do so. If he wants it not to go down then the same is true. There are no givens. The classic "ground" versus "upright" clash will depend on whos better at leading the direction of the game. Will the grounder get him down? Will the hitter keep him up? It all boils down to whos better at his game.

[jojitsu27]

Sihing73,
Wing Chun brother, I realize that you have had a different experience when it comes to street fights and I in no way doubt it. I think it is quite possible that in Korea somewhere there is a guy who thinks that 99% of all fights involve tae kwon do kicking! And in his experience that is probably the truth.
The fact is, you are a high level Wing Chun practitoner (I assume) and that is going to affect what happens in your fights against unskilled street thugs. So it is possible you are going to see things in a completely different light than me.
Another thing about why I probably view the majority of fights as going to the ground...I am from Oklahoma, the heart of American Wrestling. We have produced more state champions and Olympic gold medalists than any other state in wrestling. ANY time you get into a confrontation on the streets here there is a 99% chance that the guy you are facing has wrestling experience. We start in our cribs here!
There is a very, very good chance that you will bump into on the street or going about your business someone who has been wrestling since age 5 in the peewee leagues.
This makes someone a very good takedown artist and defintily puts a slant on groundfighting in this area. Most people who start martial arts around here start in High school or as adults, while most people (alot more than do martial arts) who wrestle started in peewee around the ages of 5 to 10.
This makes a big difference in how the fights go down around here.

Anyway, to make a long story short, my Wing Chun and boxing has revolved around defending itself against grappling because the abundance of grapplers in my area. And eventually I learned it might be good to learn submissons and good ground postitioning also so I crosstrained in BJJ.
My views on the reality of combat are definitly molded by my environment and what I've experienced!
But I am glad you are representing Wing Chun to the law enforcement community in your area, I hope you get them to make some changes in how things are done. The police officers in Tulsa still use alot of lame techniques from Shotokan karate that basically make them easy prey for some street thug who knows alittle boxing or wrestling.
Have you been able to institute any Wing Chun training in your department?
-jojitsu27

[totallyfrozen]

The reason I started taking Brazilian JiuJitsu (...here comes the confessions of a sucker...) was because I saw the Royce Gracie. I believed that all fights end up on the ground because I didn't have any real fighting skill and I always ended up on the ground because I sucked!
As I've said before I no longer study BJJ.

I liked Sihing73's post. It made sense to me.

I wish that I was good enough to answer that question "yes". As in...."Do all fights end up on the ground...well, yours do when you fight me." [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]
But alas, I'm not that good...yet. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]