Tired of kata/forms bullsheet.

[Ray Pina]

"Usually people who tend to be good at forms often have an inclination to fight"

My experience has been the opposite. At tournaments, there always a group walking around very proud, doing jumping spin kicks in the wings and swinging swords. Then, they all quietly go and change, gather their stuff and sneak out as the begin calling fighters to report to individual rings. Happens every single time. Though there are those that do both.

Forms are fun! Forms do have things that they can teach. It's the intent behind them. But five months of forms do not equal one day of training a principle with a partner.

Yes, some forms build internal but I'd be very careful with that. I've heard it my entire life. Not until training with my present teacher have I actually felt this thing I've been told about, and again, it has more to do with isloating a single posture, or one movement and holding it or doing it over and over.

These debates are silly. Because in the end, everyone will do what they want to do.

As for shadow boxing. I do it. But it's a way of oiling the machine, insuring all the pistons are firing as one ... as they should. It's not a reinactment of holding back the Qing at the burning gates of shaolin.

Some folks need this sort of thing to be inspired about their training. The Monk Spades and Tiger Forks and the jackets and the special, secret coded bow into and out of the forms. I know. I studied Hung Gar.

Now I'm inspired by the simple fact that I can walk past Times Square at 3:30 a.m. with a little groove on and feel like the badest guy on the block ... .... knowing all the while there's always someone out there tougher, perhaps armed, that I need to be training for. That's it. Pure and simple. Is your training turning you into a beater of fighters? My training took that turn about 5 years ago. I can say, before that, I was fooling myself. I still have a long way to go.

[themeecer]

Originally posted by rogue
You won't learn secret techniques, grappling or anti-grappling by doing kata or forms, you need a knowlegable instructor to teach you hands on how to setup, execute and target any technique.

Says you. But here is a news flash, there are people out there pulling techniques from forms without having a teacher hold their hand the whole way. If I had my choice of only learning the drills versus only learning the forms, I would pick forms. The drills are in the forms, you just have to pull them out.

And I disagree, I prefer that short forms are taught to beginners. It gives them the best type of exercise and teaches their body how to move.

[Ray Pina]

"If I had my choice of only learning the drills versus only learning the forms, I would pick forms. The drills are in the forms"

This makes no sense!

Your saying you'd take the forms because you can pull the drills out, which shows you find they hold merit. Minus the drills, what value do you find in the form that you couldn't get from say, stretching, bike riding or jogging?

The reason I ask, because it seems like you view forms like an encyclopedia. I used to. "O, look here. Grasp the arm with both hands and pull while kicking out there knee .... And over here, collapse the guy and tiger claw the eyes ... real hung gar .... palm on the chin pushing back, fingers digging into the eyes socket, grabbing the back-inside of the skull and pulling the whole thing down ... see ... what a charm."

I'm telling you all you are doing is cataloguing move A, B, C, D, E, F, G. That is fine. But the, "Can you do it?"

When I was a kid and dressed like a cowboy I would throw something up in the air and quickly draw my cap gun from my side and fire out a few burts ... twirl the thing around a few times, and right back in the holster ... PERFECT FORM! Real fu(king John Wayne!!! In my mind I obliverated that thing.

I'm now thinking of taking up shooting for real. I'm thinking I have to go to the gun range and start off with just aiming and pulling the trigger, probbaly have to take a gun safety course first.

Or do you think I should just go by a cap gun and keep shooting and twirling it in the air ... it looks like it will work. THAT'S WHAT THEY DO IN THE MOVIES!!!!!

Does John Wayne = Shaolin Monk in this instance?

[Starchaser107]

theres far too little competition on the tournament scene in jamaica for schools to produce athletes who's sole purpose is to compete in forms/ kata.
Mind you most of the fighting at those crappy tournaments are point fighting, but ppl seem to be of the impression that if you don't fight your style is worthless.
as the only kung fu school there we may at times have issues with people generalizing by saying kung fu is just pretty. therefore when we fight we fight.
last year a local karate school tried to introduce iska kickboxing tournaments to the island, (which imho is a step down from the san shou training we do, but non the less fighting), the ratio of fighters per school was laughable. There were so many fighters from my school some of us didnt get a chance to fight.
zero participation from any tae kwon do institution in the island, and literally one or two representatives from other karate schools.
(I assume that they did not wish to stray from the comfort zone of point fighting)


all of our students who participated were proficient in forms.
this response is definately case sensitive, I suppose by your post that in your country martial artists tend to specialize in either or.
we do not necessarily have that option, but we are imho competent in both. and I do believe that the forms training helped in some ways...but by no means was the only thing that was needed to train fighters... however it surely was not obsolete.

[Ray Pina]

Here, here. Sounds like you train at a very well rounded school! There's no arguing with that.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by rogue
I'd rather see kata delayed until later ranks. I wonder why no one has ever thought of that before?

In judo, kata aren't required till 2nd degree brown...

[MasterKiller]

I didn't know Judo had forms. I thought you just tossed each other around all the time.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

I think in Taiji in the traditional method you were not taught forms as such.

If I remember it went similar to this:
1.) Basics drills.
2.) Learn a movement/posture train it & perfect it. Could take upto 2~3 months.
(hold the Posture later add movement, etc.)
3.) When the previous movement/posture had been learned a new one was taught and perfected.
4.) Take the new movement/posture and link it with the previous one/s to form a miniature form.
5.) Wash, rinse and repeat as needed

This way the form was build slowly, but once the last movement/posture was learned the forms was complete and correct. I believe it is said that a 108 Movement form could take 5~6 yrs to be learned.

I think the teaching mthod changed due to the different circumstances of students than and now.

I have heard that at the moment there is a short form being formulated in my style to teach to new students, before doing the longer form on which I started.

[Daredevil]

I don't understand how some people diffrentiate between taking a move (doing it without a partnet, anyway) and training it from forms. They're the same thing. They're both movement. One is shorter, other is longer.

In fact, personally I like short forms much better, but that's just me. They're more to the point and the intent is easier to grasp. I mean forms like the Five Elements of Xingyiquan or the eight single moving exercises of Bajiquan.

When you train forms, you don't do some miraculous generic activity of "training forms" that magically transforms you. I think this is the common perception. You need to train forms with intent and really using your mind to learn something there.

You can do a form focusing on rooting, in different postures, in transition and movement. You develop the basics of rooting which you then take to partner drills. You can do a form focusing on flow. You can train a form focusing on power. You can refine technique (not in the sense of 'this is how it's going to look when I apply it', but in the sense of developing the internal coordinations and realizing the core principles). All these ways teach you different skills. You're going to be training different things at different times and in different levels.

Make the form come alive. If you don't, it's a dead thing and it isn't going to help you. If you do, it's just like drilling technique, shadowboxing and what not. That's my advice.

Of course, forms are just one thing. They're just a piece of the puzzle.

[Ray Pina]

"I don't understand how some people diffrentiate between taking a move (doing it without a partnet, anyway) and training it from forms. They're the same thing. "

One thing is to pick up a baseball bat and swing it blindly. It is yet another thing to stand in the batter's box and have someone beam an 80 mph fastball over the plate, or a curveball, or a slider, or a change up for that matter. each one is different. And you have to face it personally to understand. Just saying it will be slower and breaking outside doesn't quite measure up.

Saying you block like this and than do this is not like doing it to someone who doesn't want it done.

I'm not saying you start there. I'm saying you start with T-ball. But there being a ball present is very important.

I can do an amazingly number of things very well in my mind. Flying and banging Pamela Anderson are two of them that come to mind.

[Daredevil]

Naturally you will have to train these things with an actual partner. However, if you've never swung a baseball bat, it's helpful to first swing it a few times in the air to get the mechanics right -- or to at least hold it from the right end -- before proceeding to actually hitting the ball.

[Royal Dragon]

Ok, one important use of forms, is not for the student, but the teacher. When I taught a form to a student, I watched his performance, and took note of which techniques in the form he did well, and which he did poorly. The ones he did well, I imediately showed the applications to with partner training. The ones he was poor at, I devised drills out of to be done solo. Once good at those drills, I paired the student up with a partner. I did this untill all students were proficient with all the techniques in the air, against eachother in a prearranged sequence, and once I got them that far, it was free sparring time.

A typical class was about 20 minutes warmups, followed by about as much as 20 minutes conditioning (Common chest/shoulder. back/bi's, abs etc). Then I'd go about 40 minutes of forms work, with at least 20 being drilling the form in it's entirety, and 20 minutes doing isolated drills. Each student was prescribed a different drill based on what I saw their need to be from watching thier forms performance. Then came about 40 minutes of two man drills. Each two students would do two tecinques generally chosen form watching their best techniques as performed during the initial forms practice. Sometimes I did 40 minutes of strit forms work for the cardio, and sometimes it was 40 minutes of isolated drills prescribed from the previous days preformance. I often took 5-10 minutes between forms and two man work to do flexibility training to take advantage of the fact that the body is really hot and responds best to stretching at this time.

Either way, each student gets custom training designed specifically for thier needs to develop their weaknesses, AND capatolise on thier strengths. I feel this is the right way to use the forms in training. It's an excellnt method, and works very well.

[rogue]

For the record I still practice kata, but right now I'm doing kata that more reflect what I'm learning, rather than learning from the kata. After awhile I figure the opposite will be true, but right now I'm working basics that I never knew existed.

MegaPoint, I agree with your "Kihon and kata and Kihon Kata" post. I think that most of what passes as karate in America suffers from two things. The first is horrible kihon. My experience is that most karate schools are more interested in killing time durings "basics" than teaching basics that develope power, speed, balance and proper movement. The second thing is the seperation of kata from fighting, with kata looked at as art rather than a form of training for combat. I think apowyn summed it up.

Doesn't that seem odd to you though? That the 'art' of it and the execution of it should be different sides of the coin. Doesn't it seem like the art of it should be the fusion of practice and execution? And not that one aspect should be preserved for aesthetics' sake while another addresses the actuality of free fighting.

But here is a news flash, there are people out there pulling techniques from forms without having a teacher hold their hand the whole way.

And from the results I've seen they'd might as well pull rabbits out of hats, because the techniques will need a big dose of magic to work. For some reason what gets "pulled" tends to be either overly complicated or a martial fantasy. Maybe you Shoalin Do guys are just better at analysis of forms than what I've seen.

[Royal Dragon]

And from the results I've seen they'd might as well pull rabbits out of hats, because the techniques will need a big dose of magic to work

Reply]
Thats due mostly to a lack of fundementals, and proper understanding of basic figthing principals. These are most important. Without them, you don't have the essential "KEY" to properly decifer the form.

[rogue]

Exactly, and that's what, IMO, makes so much of what people find in kata bullsheet. Instead of being short nasty takeouts they are complicated flowery fantasies. How can someone say they have grappling in their kata but can't perform a lock or takedown during a drill much less in sparring?