Concern about the power (or lack of) in WC punches

[old jong]

Originally posted by Knifefighter

Five years WC training back in the 80's.

Did you have a problem with punching power after all that times?....

[Hermit]

they're talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch

I would say theres much more than momentum involved, when we are talking about damage of a punch. Size of "hit-area" for example (think of 20kg spear and 20kg bowling ball).

And "grounding power" with proper aligments of course... to cancel that nasty opposite force of our punch.

Just some thoughts...

[KingMonkey]

In a comparison of pure power I dont think a WC punch can equal a boxing/MT punch.
Can it still be powerful enough to do the job ? Yes.
Thinking purely in terms of power though is a little one dimensional. It's an important factor in a weapon definitely but not the only one. Also important is rate of fire and speed of delivery. The WC punch more than makes up for slightly less power by excelling in these other areas IMHO.

[Ernie]

power ,
how we get so easily enamored buy the load smack on a bag or pad . but what is power in the context of a combative situation ?
and how much power is really necessary ?
how much power does it take for a eye jab for example and how much do we lose in emotional and physical recovery should we miss?
in a combative situation power is to be able to inflict damage on a moving aggressive opponent while you yourself are in motion .
to do so in a way that is not over committed , that over commitment can be from the body mechanics required to generate such a huge strike , or from a certain posture you must have to pull of said strike , or even and more often then not the emotional build up to generate '' power ''

think of power as something with surgical precession , just enough to stall ,destabilize , freeze or shut down the opponent , yet not so much that you are left wide open trying to recover your position ,balance ,emotional make up .

power is the last thing on the list in the game of timing, position , and control . if you become skilled at setting up your shot , instead of firing wildly , then you will have the time and position to deliver the necessary power .

what good is power with out a delivery system. wing chun along with other arts develops that delivery system , so don't get caught up on the ''whack'' of the punch , look for the consistency of the shots .

p.s.
I have trained in mt , boxing , savate all have different idea's on power and how to use it , each has gaps in the recovery , I find wing chun has by far less gaps and greater interuptability and adaptability .

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by old jong


Did you have a problem with punching power after all that times?....

I found boxing/Muay Thai to be a much better delivery system for power shots.

[S.Teebas]

I found boxing/Muay Thai to be a much better delivery system for power shots.

In what way do you find it better? ....please be specific.

Thanks,

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by EmptyCup
it's much easier to learnthe technique of a jab/cross/hook than it is for perfecting the components that make up the wing chun punch's structure and ging. If you look at the way JKD ppl do it I have yet to see one do it "right"

I disagree. It's very hard to learn to throw boxing punches correctly. Most JKD people don't do these right either.

Originally posted by EmptyCup
you say "better delivery system for power shots" what do you mean by that? better to set up power shots as in easier to punch? or more powerful punches? if it's the latter which specific punches are you talking about?

I believe all the punches of boxing (with the possible exception of the jab) are more powerful. This is because boxing uses the much the same mechanics of every other athletic activity that generates maximum power in a horizontal, or nearly horizontal, plane. Many defenses in boxing are also designed to set up for more powerful punches.

[duende]

Knifefighter...

What about the fact that that boxers are conditioned or not conditioned because of the gloves??? Boxers breaking fingers when punching something barefisted is almost a cliche'... On the other hand many KF practicioners can punch concrete with all their might, and be fine. This kind of conditioning in itself is very effective.

just some thoughts

[Knifefighter]

Originally posted by duende
Boxers breaking fingers when punching something barefisted is almost a cliche'... On the other hand many KF practicioners can punch concrete with all their might, and be fine.

Punching concrete is much different than hitting the head of a live, moving opponent. Fingers/hands/wrists are usually broken when the punch lands slightly off-target due to head movement and/or roundness of the skull. Most boxers can hit a flat surface with an ungloved hand as hard or harder than most MA practitioners.

[straight blast]

ah diddums, whassup?, catch a nerve did I

Nah dude...I've just been training with a pommy guy for a couple of months and it's an expression he uses all the time.

I am finding it cropping up at all sorts of inopportune moments i.e. disagreeing with my boss "Total Bollocks! Oops."

[yuanfen]

Agree and disagree with knifefighter. Boxing punches are not easy to learn. Developing a first class jab or a completely straight quick right and making the hooks crisp are not easy.

But ITOH- learning a wing chun punch is not easy either- actually it is more difficult to learn it well compared to a boxing punch.

It takes quite a while to develop the explosive wing chun "short power" or
explosive one inch or zero inch power. Demos dont do it justice- because demos try to show people flying backwards. At close quarters boxers often have to push to get punching room... a good
wc person should not have to.

[duende]

Originally posted by Knifefighter
Punching concrete is much different than hitting the head of a live, moving opponent. Fingers/hands/wrists are usually broken when the punch lands slightly off-target due to head movement and/or roundness of the skull. Most boxers can hit a flat surface with an ungloved hand as hard or harder than most MA practitioners.

I'm going to disagree with you on this one only in that I think boxers break there fingers on flat surfaces too. This is because they get used to angling there wrists in such a way with the gloves on, which at the same time causes them to loose structural support of all of their knuckles. Not all boxers mind you, but enough to mention.

Also I think over time they become dependant on the taping of their wrists.

just my observations... I'm no boxer, but I do know a few.

[JThorne]

an interesting debate developing guys

for those who think I am 'putting down' WC in anyway, you are wrong, I was simply concerned about the very short ROM involved with the particular WC punches that I have seen.

In all honesty looking at the whole system (or more than just the punches) I think that WC is very clever and aesthetically beautiful, i can also relate to the centre line theories, the directness, economy of motion & subsequent efficiencies.

Just concerned about it lacking power, thats all.
Some VERY good points about learning boxing punches as well.

finally, why do so many folks wear those Bruce Lee / Jet Li outfits/suits?? (non Chinese folks that is)

[CFT]

Originally posted by Marky
"Power = mass x acceleration x distance/time" KnifeFighter

I put quotes around "power" because I wasn't literally talking about power. Your equation is correct, but it has nothing to do with the damage done by a punch. When most people talk about the "power of a punch", they're talking about the damage dealt (momentum) of a punch, not the rate of change in work of a punch as a function of time as you've written above.

On that note, the power function has nothing do do with distance either! Power is a function of the RATE OF CHANGE in distance over time, not the distance itself. In other words, power is based partially on velocity... much like momentum, as was discussed earlier.

KnifeFighter had it correct if you express the equation in terms of distance travelled, delta-d, in interval of time, delta-t.

Mass x acceleration is = Force.
Force x distance travelled = Work done.
Work done / Time taken = Power.

It's not easy to use such a simple equation to calculate the force or power of a punch anyway. It would probably only apply to just the fist alone and therefore not consider body structure.

To use such a simple equation would mean working out an effective mass or acceleration to account for body structure/linkage, which would be difficult. Alternatively you would need some kind of "complex" connected model of the human body .... any bio-mechanics people out there?

[Hermit]

Mass x acceleration is = Force.
Force x distance travelled = Work done.
Work done / Time taken = Power.

Hmmm... so if my fist is slowing down (a<0) when it hits the target the power is negative
Consider also a bullet fired from a gun. It has negative acceleration after it leaves the barrel. Would my punch hurt more if it would have acceleration of say 10 m/s?

Nope. Acceleration has nothing to do with "power" of a punch. Well, not if we observe the fist or body performing the punch. Then it is better to use momentum (as explained by Marky). Instead we could possibly observe what happens to the object or surface we are punching. How does acceleration of this object change and what distance does it travel and in what time...

Just some thoughts about physics...