Mantis Vs Wing Chun clip

[mantis108]

Just found this clips on the KFO main board provided by Fa Jing.

http://users.1st.net/abaddon/kfo/wcvsmantissparring.wmv

I made some inquiries about the clip. Here's my post:

<<<Mantis108 wrote:

Hi Fa Jing
Thanks for sharing the clips. I am curious as to the clip of Wing Chun Vs Northern Mantis. Could you give some background to who's who and the general rules that are applied in the match there. By looking at the way they moved, I believe the black shirt blue pants is from NPM (HK 7 Stars lineage?). But then it is weir that he's the one that's got taken down more often then the other. Also there was an occassion where he could have capitalize on the takedown (while he was being taken down) but didn't materialized I wonder if it was the rule or if it was his training that he let it go. Assuming the black shirt is a NPM player, I am a bit puzzle that he used very few fundamental PM techiques. There is no hook-grab-pluck type of technique which is essential to PM style of fighting. Again perhaps there are rules involved? Could you comment on that please. Thank you.

Regards

Mantis108>>>

To which Fa Jing responded.

<<<Fajing wrote:

Correct on who's who. The Mantis guy is Sifu Lee Lera. He studied 7-star NPM with Master Kwan as well as others. I don't think there really were rules other than not really trying to hurt the other guy. As for the takedowns - why would Mantis be any more proficient at avoiding the takedown than Wing Chun? Sounds like typical North-South myths to me. Wing Chun man (sifu Milan from Brazil) was pretty aggressive and he's talented. Mantis guy had better kicks although not by much. Now for the lack of distinctive wing chun/mantis motions....well look at the footwork. It's there. The hands, well - when you are standing across from someone who's about as talented as you are, you can't just do anything you want and it's not going to look pretty. If you slow it down you can see more of what's going on. Sifu Lera definitely lifted his elbows and did some of that side-swipe stuff. Compared to the Wing Chun guy who kept his elbows down.

Sifu Lera (mantis guy) was pretty good at the throat grab, nut grab when on the ground - don't know if you noticed that.>>>

My response there:

<<<Hi Fajing
Thank you once again for the clarifications.

First off, I am only sharing what my impression. It doesn't represent any other's opinion but mine. Any mistake would be solely mine.

Your point on the takedown and the talens involved are well taken. Personally, I don't think that all PM styles have the same training focus that's why there are stylistic differences. I brought that point up basically to illustrate that issue. IMHO Training focus should bring awareness. In this case there might be other reasons such as he might be trying to expirement with the ground range techniques or something. That we don't have much chance to see because they are almost immediately seperated as soon as they hit the ground.

Since his style is different than mine, I can only say that we would look at things diffferently. I also agreed that agressiveness plays a big part here as well. I admire his willingness to put his abilities to the test with fine opponent(s). I do think that we need more of that kind of event to bring PM out to the public eyes and in turn sharpen PM skills.

Thanks for pointing out those "grabs" on the ground. It would be interesting to see them working on the ground but I guess that's another thing that we can look forward to.

Regards

Mantis108>>>

To be continued...

[mantis108]

I have futher thoughts on this clips but due to a lack of reference point on the main board, I don't think it would be easy to make my points across there. So I would like to share with you these toughts.

First off, I am only sharing what my impression. It doesn't represent any other's opinion but mine. Any mistake would be solely mine. Also this is not personal attack on anyone or any style. It is only meant to be an exploration on sparring with Mantis as I see it.

I will stick to analyzing the NPM player here:

General flavor:

It would seem that the "longfist" focus and mentality are pretty evident in the approach here. I believe NPM is of the said focus so it is understandable that he approach the session that way.

Agressiveness:

As we can see that he is often "looking" for openning which is nothing inheritly wrong. However, this also shows that his training protocol is very likely based on that. There are techniques such as the "Dien Shou/Yang Jeung" (as found in 7 hands) that allows the PM stylist to be more aggressive. I think we need to descern the difference between self defense (more reactive) and competition sparring (more proactive). I believe it would help us more if we make that distinction. Tainan has also point out that the majority of PM trainings nowadays are too reactive. A lot of Mantis stylists just don't seem know how to "beat the other to the punch". So it would be productive to even out the passiveness with aggressiveness.

Closing the gap:

Here it is most evident the Changquan mindset is in effect most of the time. Closing the gap IMHO is an area where it is an art onto itself in PM. It would seem that his main concern here most of the time is to step in, therefore closing the gap and deliver some short of strikes (both punching and kicking). While there are attempts to use elbows (very few knees), the combinations of elbows and knees are not "delievered". I am of the opinion that the footwork is not there to support it.

Hand techniques:

I am sorry to say that there is very little of Hook-Grab-pluck type of "genetic marker" of PM here. Even the Chuan, Beng, Pi, Tso, etc are often not there. I wish to see more of sealing and Tie Kao but there isn't that much and there isn't really a "controlled/composed" use of those neither. Chin Na is also not attempted which could be explained. If one is to face a talented exponent of another style, it is safer not to be fancy.

Kicking:

I think his best talent is in the kicks and defense against kicks which I surmise he has been dealing with kicking styles such as TKD alot. His counter to kicks, especially catching and hooking them are quite excellent. Yet the follow up is not there. This I would think is due to the training focus as well. However, it is also of my humble opinion that tradition kicking technique and combos are not showcased here. There are a few good kicks and sweep but they are delivered with the longfist mindset. The result is less desireable IMHO.

Takedowns:

There are some attempts but it seems that there is not enough intention to throw it (pun intended). He seems to have predetermined that fight should be carried out on his feet not on his back so he often put his foot down on the takedown attempts by his opponent. But as the opponent is aggressive and relentless, he became prone to being takendown despite of the great effort.

Finally, I am under the impression that he "cares" to much about what the other guy will do than his own plan of attack. I believe this is something that we need to bear in mind while using mantis.

As I said before everyone or style has his/its own approach, these are just my observations about this clips. I admire the NPM player's willingness to test his skills with others. I think by doing so it will help sharpening PM skills

Mantis108

[mantisben]

The PM fighter didn't seem that aggressive. It appears to me that he didn't want to get aggressive and escalate the fight. It looked like a friendly test of hands. Not even a sparring session. The Wing-Chun fighter looked good and demonstrated that he would've landed some strikes after he took down the PM fighter.

When I learned about Wing Chun, I liked it. It is very practical, aggressive, and their techniques work. The Wing Chun fighting method is sound. I'm not a Wing Chun fighter.

I think if the PM fighter was more aggressive, these two fighters would've thrown alot more blows at one another. It looked like the Wing Chun fighter was more eager to "mix it up" than the PM fighter.

The footwork of the PM fighter to close the gap wasn't there. In the stories I've heard about the creation of PM, the PM hands were good, but the footwork wasn't. The footwork was bad, not practical, and lacking. So they added the footwork of the Monkey. This made PM hand techniques better. The Monkey footwork made the PM handwork more effective. More practical for hand-to-hand combat.

In my view of the Demo Fight, the PM fighter appeared to be holding back.

[BaldMonk]

I was a bit dissapointed in the lack of aggressiveness from the mantis practitioner. But, moreso in the lack of commitment of either participant, when it came to executing techniques that would give the oppontent what I like to call, 'something to work with'. I don't know if the lack of crisp commited techs was due to the fact that they were touching hands and not an actual challenge match but in my experience, both people learn more when both throw techniques with intent, and I didn't see that here. Using techniques with intention leaves you open to getting tagged though and maybe they didn't want that to happen. I've learned so much more from getting stung than holding back though. Props to them for testing their skills on video.. on the web.. and lettin' us armchair quarterback them. Much respect to them both.

[18elders]

I also don't think the mantis guy was aggressive enough, he allowed the Wing chun guy to play patty cake with his front hand way toooooo much. If he got away with it once it should've never happened again. He should've been in on him.
But this is my opinion and the way we train.
Appreciate the clip anyway

[mantisben]

Originally posted by BaldMonk
...Props to them for testing their skills on video.. on the web.. and lettin' us armchair quarterback them. Much respect to them both.

I agree. I've never heard the term "armchair quarterback", but in the context that you used the phrase, I think I know what it means.

Good Post!

[mantis108]

If this is really about not hurting but exercising your techs, then it is all the more reason to apply style specific techs.

18 Elders,

I think you would see many oppotunities in there to use the training from your favorite ling form - 18 Elders. Just imagine:

1. Diao Pi (could add Beng Chuan)
2. Tibu Diao Da (could add Deng Ta takedown, also a great way to avoid toe trap)
3. Deng Shan Die Zhou Beng Chui (could add Bimen Jiao)
4. Go lu Tsai (a great number of moves can follow)

This 4 moves combo (you can break them apart and resemble in a different order if need be) alone is quite excellent in this situation IMHO. Especially, when the opponent's training is more focus on centerline attacks. This 4 moves also convey the ideas of Fanche (both side of the body or lead & rear in support of each other, ie 1+2) Lulu (keep firing attacks from the same side once there is an openning, ie 3+4) which is the essence of mantis fighting approach IMHO. The beauty of it is that they are found in a form during the early stage of training.

Anyway, it is just some thoughts I have to share with you.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[yu shan]

The so called mantis guy in the blue looks like a Wah Lum "fighter" a perfect rendition.

Many, many missed oppurtunities... on both sides.

[Life long Student]

I don't know the context of there work out but, this seams typical of many traditional martial artists that I have ever seen, except for a very few. What they practice as a style is never reviled when "sparing, or play fighting". Most of what comes out is kick punch or grab. This is not to criticize but an observation.

[cerebus]

I enjoy seeing "style vs style" sparring matches. It's obvious this was just a friendly sparring match, nothing more. It was interesting to watch though. The Wing Chun guy was definitely more aggressive and was better at closing the gap as well as using the takedown & followup.I'm not sure about his using that high roundhouse kick to the head though, bad idea (the PM guy could've caught it for a takedown). I too was expecting to see the trademark mantis "grab & pull" into a rearhand strike from the PM dude, but of course things don't always work the way we'd like them to. Interesting to watch. T.

[wiz cool c]

mantis108 what website did that clip come from.

[mantis108]

I have no idea. I just got it from a thread on the main board here.

I find that interesting so I share the link with everyone here.

Regards

Mantis108

[yu shan]

This clip makes me feel that much more lucky. I mean the stuff my Shrfu teaches me, these two poor souls are clueless! Is it true they are teachers?

[Mantis9]

First and foremost, thank you Mantis108 for bringing us this clip and thank you to these two sifus for recording this event.

I agree with the lot of you that intention is the defining characteristic in this bout. IMHO, both sifus looked as if they were developing game plans on the spot, leading to a 'feeling out' period. However, neither fully commits to an offense, though Sifu Milan was more commited, so they never really seem to get beyond that point.

Sifu Lera seems to be waiting for the counter, which would account for his lack of aggressiveness. Maybe not. This is all just grand speculation. I think Lera keeps creating space, expanding the reaction-distance, with his kicks, perhaps to set up those quintessetial mantis hand techniques, while waiting for Milan to commit. I could also simply be that he's more comfortable fighting from the outside. He had some quick kicks.

IMHO, that's why there is hardly any demostration on Sifu Lera's part of monkey footwork or closing the gap. I don't believe he thought he would need to close the gap, but was expect Sifu Milan to do that for him.

Sifu Milan seems to want to entice Sifu Lera into an attack, but never quit gets him to bite. For example, Sifu Milan slapping at Sifu Lera's advanced arm.

I don't think Sifu Milan was really that much more aggressive than Lera, but when he tried to bait Lera it was more proactive. When you look at the moments when both exchange more than one blow apiece, you'll see that its because the baiting game has left either or both in a compromised position, which in turn leads the compromised trying to correct his predicament by fight his way out.

Okay, so if you thought that was speculating...

If I was to give my two cents (which I hear the US dollar has depreciated) I would ask the Mantis man, if he wished to play the role of a countering fighter, to use lateral and circular footwork more. Waiting shouldn't mean standing still.

I think that's the crux of the problem for Sifu Lera's intentions. His waiting caused him to stand too much in one spot. This led to a lot of small problems that turned into being thrown, getting his back turned once, and being overwhelmed at times.

Also, this kind of movement leads to openings and angles more readily than waiting directing in front of an opponent. And with a probing, baiting boxer like Sifu Milan, those moments of compromise that he produced on occasion could be exploited better, because Sifu Lera wouldn't have to right himself as well.

Mantis prowess and technique then could be used to its height.

Thanks for clip.

Mantis9

[CFT]

Originally posted by Mantis9
IMHO, that's why there is hardly any demostration on Sifu Lera's part of monkey footwork or closing the gap. I don't believe he thought he would need to close the gap, but was expect Sifu Milan to do that for him.

I'm fairly new to Wing Chun; from what I've read, the Wing Chun philosophy is to close the gap but you don't always have to do it yourself .... you can wait for your opponent to do it for you! Economy of motion and all that I suppose.

I guess both masters were just waiting for the other .... you first .... no you first ... ahh, but I insist ..... not at all old chap ....