More fun with Energetics

[QuaiJohnCain]

This is for all of you who have been following the "Chen - Taiji" thread and the "Gin Soon CHanged thier clips!" thread...

Richard Dunn has made his video clips containing "energetic work" public. They can be found in the "Tai Chi Samples" area of www.art-of-energetics.com or by following the links I provided below. There are two clips showing push hands work, and seven showing energetic work.

Push hands clips:
http://www.art-of-energetics.com/pushing_hands.htm

Energetic work clips:
http://www.art-of-energetics.com/energy_work.htm

one interesting thing to remember: Mr. Dunn claims that this work is unique to genuine Yang style Taiji, and that John Ding, Chu Gin Soon and himself are the only guys who do this stuff. It's intersting that both John Ding and Chu Gin Soon call this empty force, or ling kong jin, and Richard (Ding's student) says it is not. Let's hear some feedback.

[Ray Pina]

I've never seen anything like this before, especially the "linking" footage.

I hold any comment out of fear of sounding ignorant. My MA, at least at this stage, requires me beating someone.

[bamboo_ leaf]

There can be no reasonable explanation for what your looking at with out some direct experience or understanding to base it on.

Reading some of the exploits of the old taiji masters, many sound far fetched, hard to believe, just as viewing the clips may not present an idea of what’s happing just based on the info presented.

If you look at other sites making similar claims or views its interesting to note that they tend to look the same and say the same things.

It would be safe to say that its interesting

[backbreaker]

I don't necessarily disbeleive empty force can exsist.Are these clips empty force?I don't know.I am however skeptical of this guy's peng energy.I can't tell if he slams people back into the wall because he is bigger or if he is using taiji skill.I don't see peng jin as a technique ,but as an overall quality your body develops in training.I can't tell by watching these videos as I'm no expert in taiji.I can only guess what would happen if this guy fought,say,Dan Severn.I beleive peng jin would be more of a factor than empty force.This guy may or may not be good,I can't say, but my experience with yang style is that it doesn't have as much peng jin in each move as chen style.My opinion is to watch out a bit if someone's main technique is empty force or if they emphasize it too much.

[Ray Pina]

I'm not a taiji guy, so I can't discuss his taiji. However, I've been studying martial arts for a long time and have seen a lot of things.

Interesting? Of course!!! How could I not be interested in the ability to trap someone's arms and simply walk away and the other, having no direct force aplied, is unable to unwrap himself. The icing on the cake? Send him flying on his way with a Moses parting the red sea gesture ... fabulous!!!!!

Like I said, it is interesting. But I have been on this path since I was 4, looking closely and carefully. I've seen amazing breaking and even a guy catch an arrow up close and personal. But I only see things like this on video. I've never been in a room, gym, tournament local -- anywhere -- where someone does this to foreign spectators.

So I'm interested and skeptical. I'm not getting a heavy, "that's a guy you don't want to mess with" vibe. The resulting "reACTions" also seem greater than the initial "action". Could that belly bounce move someone? Sure. Fly against the wall and bounce a few feet back out? I'm not too sure if I took a running start and Jimmy Fly Snookaed him he'd fly that far.

I was more impressed by the flippity-floppity whipping but too quickly withdrawing hand techniques someone posted over on the external board a week or two ago.

I'm never quite sure what these guys are trying to prove with these clips ... that they're fighters? ... posses some skill that others don't? I need to see it in context that makes me water at the mouth ... I need to see it in a way that makes me feel like I can't go on a day without that technology.

[bamboo_ leaf]

www.yiquan.com
www.imperialtaichi.com
http://www.gstaichi.org/videoClips.html



a couple of sites like this talk about what is being demoed in the clips. They also present in it in a way that most can relate to....

The idea is the same.

11/10/03
19:00


What’s interesting is that there appears to be a group of people, saying and doing the same things. Their demos tend to look the same. Weather one believes in it or not they do, as do the people who follow it.


Frankly I don’t have any vested interest in this except to try and show some information that may help explain what is being demoed. Some would argue weather TCM and other practices related to it are real or proven, this falls into the same idea of those practices.

www.art-of-energetics.com


(You should also treat all your fellow students with understanding, friendliness and consideration.
It is important to have faith in your teacher, but at the same time you should test the truth of his or her advice by putting it into practice and coming to your own conclusions)



This was taken from their site. I think its good advice for anyone regardless of practice.

A good discussion might be what do these sites have in common, what main points are they trying to make given the information presented.


david

[gazza99]

Id like to raise the BS flag on this one. I know its nice and diplomatic to say "interesting", but a one legged transvestite in a golf cart ringing a cow bell as he/she drives down the main drag is "interesting". I think a quote Ive found reflects my professional opinion perfectly..

"I'm all for open discussion, really, I am, but there comes a point where I must softly shake my head and utter a low but authoritative 'nigga, please'." - Boyd

Gary

[bamboo_ leaf]

ttt

[looking_up]

The late Shi Ming touches upon this subject in his book, Mind Over Matter. In the Healing and the Mind documentary, eh demonstrates (on his student, of course) the ability to manipulate the other persons body through touch alone. I don't understand exactly what Shi Ming is talking about in his book, but it has to do with creating some sort of mind/energy field that is not necessarily limited to the space occupied by your body.

George Xu briefly mentions the concept of Shi, which he calls presence, in one of the latest Tai Chi mags. He describes it as a field or pool of energy that you create with your energy and mind. It can be felt by the opponent, kind of like when you are a few meters away from a tiger you know that it has you, so it is pointless to try to escape. "Oh that's just psychological..." And just what does that mean? Just psychological? You can't separate the mind from the body.

Again, as bamboo said, there must be *something* to this stuff if several people (who are not widely believed to be insane) mentiond it. I don't think it is supposed to be understood as a magical force or empty force or anything like that, but a higher level of the stuff that we work on. What a shame if there are some kooks that completely discredit people with genuine high level ability. Much like certain qigong cults discredit the hard working, practical qigong practitioners and teachers.

Do I believe it? I think it could be possible, but I'm not going to spend one minute worrying about it because I have more mundane things to try to master. That's my ramblings on the subject.

[backbreaker]

I wasn't really interested by watching these films and my immediate impression was skepticism.I was a little skeptical of the stance and shifting of weight and the belly bump.I don't just go by my original impression always though.If I watch videos a second time I'll look at the weight shifting and peng mainly in the legs.It's just that in these videos when the big guy then throws someone off it's always backwards in the same direction into the same wall and it's hard to tell if it's strength.Why not throw someone off your shoulder behind you? Does this guy have a special technique that's been hidden?Or is this stuff faking similar to hypnosis shows?If it's fake I think it's stupid or if it doesn't work really.I think I have seen strange similar things though.At a big taiji conference I went to in 1996 there was a guy teaching a seminar and he'd just demonstrate on people there even a guy from my town and this conference was in a bigger different city.I heard him talking afterward and he had no idea how this guy did it.He would just tell them to punch him in the face and he would stare at them,then they would just freeze up and get real stiff and unable to punch.The seminar I think was actually on chin na,and it was really popular

[Golden Arms]

Chen Man Ching talked about this, but saiud that it only worked on people with a lesser skill level than the practitioner that was doing it and should therefore not be trained as something to rely upon. I think it is also mentioned in the book that was written about him.

[bamboo_ leaf]

The fact that CMC was aware of it but didn’t make much of it probably depends on weather he could do it himself. Read some of CMC encounters with his teacher. This type of energy was expressed as a touch. Also read some of the encounters with some of the Chen family members and other people.

Push hands is supposed to teach sensitivity(not winning or fighting,as many practice it today ), how would one put it to use for some one punching or kicking. Waiting for the kick or punch and then reacting with it, is to slow. They needed some way to project their intent while still being able to detect the intent of the other. At first touch win or lose it would be over, simple movements combined with a very different use of intent and qi... enables one to use the mind over the body. At first you work with your body much later working with others (helping you to develop it) you can applie it as needed.

How would one train this?

Looking at the sites, we can see that they all talk of using the Yi, and Qi coupled with the Shen. They attempt to train the inner workings over the outer use of technique, speed or strength although these are also factored into the training.

a differnt approach, makes life interesting

[backbreaker]

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