Evolving past bashing styles, systems and schools.

[The Willow Sword]

TWS, you are falling into the same politically correct deconstruction of thought that is undermining Wesern thought.

How so? Because i no longer want to engage in immature bashing of styles and systems based on someone's "perception" of what they "think" they should really truely be? i fail to see your reasoning with this quote.

By claiming that ALL positions are acceptable, at what point can you claim anything to be true, or at least valid?

i dont claim anything monkey slap. As far as truth goes monkey slap, in anything that you do in life i would think that being true to thine ownself is what makes the truth valid FOR yourself, and screw what anyone else thinks

Let's face it, if you are making a claim, you should have some evidence to back it up. If you claim to be a fighter, fight. If you claim to be a great coach - show your students abilities.

I know what this quote is about and i said that i would NOT discuss that again. and i still wont.
i dont claim to be a fighter,,,,,,but i can fight.
i dont claim to be a great coach,,,,,,,but i have coached and helped alot of people when i was coaching/teaching, and not by my own admission. it was by thiers.

Martial Arts are martial by nature. Without fighting skill, you are a performance artist. With martial skill being the deviding point of what is 'real' and what is not 'real' - it is inevitable that a fight becomes the way to prove the point. If you claim to be a great painter - show us your paintings.

i disagree with the inevitability that a "fight" becomes the way to prove the point. do you know the story of the "Ronin and the Tea Master"? it is an old japanese story lesson that essentially says that one need not go through the motions to Fight to prove a point or to establish "Your" version of what is real and what is "not". it is a good story,,check it out(or i will post it on another thread real soon.)


As for the rest of your postings monkey slap,,,very intelligent very well written and very, in my opinion, wayyyy off the track of what i am trying to say here with respect to my first post in this thread. Here is a zen saying i came up with that i have shared with others and it writes like this.
"The Monkey Chatters,,,the Tiger lies in wait,,,The Sage drinks his wine and Humbly walks down the path".
i believe i have been all three of these characters. but i am still learning humility. are you?

Many Respects,,,The Willow Sword.

[The Willow Sword]

this relates to my above reply to monkey slaps post about the inevitability of fighting to prove a point.

:The Ronin and the Teamaster:

A master of Chado (The way of the tea ceremony) Tajimi Kozo, was challenged to a duel by an unscrupulous ronin who was confident of winning with ease. As Tajimi could not refuse the challenge without loss of his honour,,the tea master prepared to die.
Tajimi went to call on a neighbouring master of Kenjutsu and asked to teach him how to die properly. "Your intention is most 'laudable," said the expert "and i should be very happy to help you,,but first would you be so kind as to serve tea to me?"

Tajimi was delighted to have the chance to practise his skill,probably for the last time, and so he was totally absorbed in the ceremony of preparing the tea, forgetting what was in store for him. The expert was deeply impressed by his degree of serenity at such a solemn time: "there is no need for me to teach you how to die", he told him. "your concentration of mind is so great that you can let yourself encounter any sword expert. When you are facing the ronin, first imagine that you are about to serve tea to a guest. greet him courteously. Take off your coat, fold it carefully and place your fan on top of it, exactly as you have just done. Then draw your katana and raise it above your head,ready to strike when the opponent attacks, and concentrate on this action alone."
Tajimi thanked the kenjutsu expert and went to the place appointed for the fight. He followed the expert's advice and totally absorbed himself with the thought that he was about to serve tea to a friend. When he raised his sword above his head, the ronin sensed that before him was an entirely different character; he could see no way around him; Tajimi seemed to him as solid as a rock, completely without fear or weakness.
So the ronin, demoralized by this behaviour, threw down his katana and prostrating himself before Tajimi, humbly asked forgiveness for his unspeakable conduct.


Many respects,TWS

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by The Willow Sword
Are we so arrogant and jaded and biased that we have to fall in to the traps of judging other schools and systems and styles?

It is in our nature to judge.We judge everything, why not schools, systems and styles? Example, I don't like TKD - I've tried it, but it's not my cup of tea. There are people, like Rogue for example, who do love it, and I know from personal experience that it can be used quite effectively. Consequently, you will never hear me say TKD is a bad style, but since I don't like it for myself, then I have judged it.

i mean i have heard time and time again the saying "well if it works for you and you are happy then cool".(or some derivative of that comment) It can be a convienient excuse for masking disdain and passive agressively judging someones choice of school ,style or system.

there doesn't have to be disdain there - see above.

Why are we Men so pre-disposed to resorting to the violence of what we do? i mean being that we we practice is fighting. but do we really have to stop there and remain,in my opinion, on the surface level of what these arts and systems are all about?

It's a MARTIAL art - an art of fighting. on the surface and beneath it, fighting is what it's about - that's why it's martial. Sure, there are other lessons to be learned, but at the core is the fact that it's martial.

no wonder the chinese laugh at us and think us ridiculous. I for one would like to see here on this forum decent exchanges of information rather than immature bantering and BS.

there is plenty of that here. Check out the ultimate grappling thread and the favorite throw thread for examples. People from different styles comparing and contrasting throws in their respective systems.

i dont exclude myself from all the immature banter and BS. i own my own writings here. But i am tired of it. i had a revelation the other night that "the world does NOT revolve around our jaded perceptions of each other and what we practice".
What we do is but a fraction of what the world is about and i think it is time we evolve past all this BS and really be the disciplined people that we "think" and "claim" we are.

It's no secret that the world doesn't revolve around MY perceptions, however, MY world does. just as YOUR world revolves around YOUR perceptions. If you don't want to be around the BS, then simply don't take part in it. Easy enough, right?

despite our political and martial arts differences we are good people(for the most part). we may not do good things at times and we reveal our flaws and imperfections here. But i have faith that at some point on this forum that we will start really talking martial arts and really exchanging good info and sharing our own personal insights to things, rather than repeating what someone else has said or thinks.

We already do that. Case in point, RD and myself. I completely disagree with most of his approach to MA. We don't resort to name calling and the like, however. We just dispute our differences in an adult manner - I can show you several such threads to back it up. I've met him in person - he's not such a bad guy, we just have differing views of MA.

[rogue]

It is in our nature to judge.We judge everything, why not schools, systems and styles? Example, I don't like TKD - I've tried it, but it's not my cup of tea. There are people, like Rogue for example, who do love it, and I know from personal experience that it can be used quite effectively. Consequently, you will never hear me say TKD is a bad style, but since I don't like it for myself, then I have judged it.

Since I was mentioned. 7* is right, and judgement [(The act or process of judging; the formation of an opinion after consideration or deliberation.
) is one of things that seperates us from the other animals. Bashing is one thing, judging is another. For example I could fight pretty good with the TKD I was learning, but now I've found a sensei who teaches at an entire different level than my TKD school. My judgement says that what I'm doing now, is superior to the TKD and I'm spending less time in the dojang and more time working on the new material which is more in-line with my goals.

[cerebus]

We're human beings. If we were beyond human, there would be no need for martial arts in the first place, hence no need for this forum. Until then we will all continue to discuss, debate, argue, bicker, cuss, & fight amongst ourselves to our hearts content. That's what it's all about . Are you SURE you're not still an SDer TWS? . T.

[MonkeySlap Too]

TWS - I wasn't referring to you or your fight. You get props for stepping up. My comment was more general.

Also - you have GOT to be kidding me on the parables about the tea master. This is a Zen Buddhist parable about state of mind, and facing the unknown. NOT about being able to fight. You see, it is this mushy thinking that is the reason you might get laughed at. FYI - most of the good CMA schools I have known from China respect good fighting ability - not how much you can talk about fighting without proving anything.

I would suggest that if you are truly looking to get into the warriors mindset that you put away the fantasy books and the ren fest gear and sign up as a mercanary in Iraq. Then you might understand the parable of the Ronin and the teamaster. Or at least check into a traditional Zen center and get a taste for the flavor of it all.

As far as humility goes, I find it very funny that you are preaching it.

Also - you still cling to the notion that truth is solely determined by the individual. If this is so, I encourage you to believe that you can fly. Nothing is more erroneous. I gaurentee you that a Tae Bo player can not step into the ring with a Golden Gloves boxer.

TWS - I know you probably have some form of conviction that you must be right. But i would suggest reality testing those ideas you cling too, you might be surprised. Especially when you discover that there actually are some objective truths. Here's a hint: If you can measure it, it is real.

[Golden Tiger]

"Judge not yet yee (you) be judged yourself"......

[Bluesman]

We find our faults best in other people.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Judge not lest ye also be judge has to do with trying not to notice anothers faults - it is a nice spritual lesson to pull one away from bad feelings about others.

It does not say that you cannot judge things. If you take the Christian position, and say you can't judge anything, well you can't judge the big evil-boo satan, and sinning is just relative, so don't worry about it. If your wife cheats on you, well in HER truth it was okay...

I know, the little steam engines are going huh?!? My point is simple, even though Willow Sword has difficulty with it. Let's say two Doctor's are talking. One is trained at Harvard, and did his residency at John Hopkins. He not only has a successful 'lineage', and has people he treated who liked him, but he can produce statistics of his treatments that work through third parties.

The other doctor goes to a school that calls itself Harvard-Do, and claims to not only give it's degree in medicine, but in ALL the world's forms of medicine, and that everything else that is taught is inconmplete or false. The wierd thing, s thier 'Western medicine' looks just lke African Witch Doctor practices. But they swear to you it's the scientific method. They have plenty of beleivers who like them, but cannot produce any statistics on successful treatments or any information from third parties.

Now, who would you go to for medical care? Be careful! You better not judge, because making other people confront thier own misconceptions is far worse than allowing people to get bad treatment.

My god people, the fruits of the deconstructionist movement have taken root in your minds, and you probably have no idea what I am talking about.

This will be fun.

Oooh, can't we all get along? Sure. Personally. Will I trade in my critical reasoning capability, and the method for measuring success just because somewone elses head is full of fantasy? No. I'd rather NOT get along with you. You can earn your place on the floor just like everyone else.

Wasn't it MerryPrankster who said the big problem in martial arts is that respect is earned in life, but most martial artists expect it to be just given?

[Meat Shake]

Earning respect by giving it is a most common practice.

[The Willow Sword]

Also - you have GOT to be kidding me on the parables about the tea master. This is a Zen Buddhist parable about state of mind, and facing the unknown. NOT about being able to fight. You see, it is this mushy thinking that is the reason you might get laughed at. FYI - most of the good CMA schools I have known from China respect good fighting ability - not how much you can talk about fighting without proving anything.

i think you are missing my point on the story and how it relates here on this forum. first of all let me state that this is my interpretation(which is the beauty of these parables in that the lessons in them are many, so you can interpret them from many aspects) the point of the story is that you confront things with a positive attitude,,in here on the forums you confront bashing and disrespect with a positive attitude and converse with your antagonist as if he/she were a friend(as i am doing with you right now). what i also wanted to stress about the inevitability of the "fight" to prove something: i dont have to Prove to you ANYTHING, if you wish to test me then that is your own perrogative, but my actions and ways are not dictated or molded after what you or anyone thinks concerning my "abilities".
as with the tea master raising his sword with conviction knowing that he could die so to do i raise my sword and wait. but only if i am challenged. it is a figure of speech though monkey slap. heheh i got rid of the chip on my shoulder and FYI i stopped doing the ren fests(didnt really fit in with them anyway).

Also - you still cling to the notion that truth is solely determined by the individual. If this is so, I encourage you to believe that you can fly. Nothing is more erroneous. I gaurentee you that a Tae Bo player can not step into the ring with a Golden Gloves boxer.

yes i do cling to that notion for I know in MY heart it is the "truth"
haha but the jibe you throw in about believing that i can fly based on my notion is off to what i am saying here. I do have common sense and i KNOW the "truth" about physics.
and tae bo is not about stepping in to the ring with a golden gloves boxer,,its a cardio excersise that is based on martial moves to keep you fit. forgive me but your quote is silly and irrelevant here.

TWS - I know you probably have some form of conviction that you must be right. But i would suggest reality testing those ideas you cling too, you might be surprised. Especially when you discover that there actually are some objective truths. Here's a hint: If you can measure it, it is real.

hey man i test myself all the time,in more ways than one, i just dont brutalize myself or others in the process, with respect to the martial arts, i recognize the core of what the arts are about and i also recognize the deeper meanings of that way of life,and one thing that i do realize is that you dont waste your energy and you dont frivolously fight your way through opponent after opponent to establish to yourself that you are an accomplished fighter. in my opinion here you save yourself for the time when you will really NEED to utilize it,,for survival, for self preservation, everything else is just play,,theory,,competition,,and also testing applications(i just dont do the competitions for i believe that they are a waste of time and energy.)

This has been great conversing with you monkey slap. point and counterpoint. mature and with intellect,,and disagreeing in the politest way possible with one another and still getting along.
i definatle like the "tea" you have served to me. i hope it is the same with you.

Many Respects,,,TWS

[FatherDog]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
TWS, you are falling into the same politically correct deconstruction of thought that is undermining Wesern thought. By claiming that ALL positions are acceptable, at what point can you claim anything to be true, or at least valid?

Let's face it, if you are making a claim, you should have some evidence to back it up. If you claim to be a fighter, fight. If you claim to be a great coach - show your students abilities.

Martial Arts are martial by nature. Without fighting skill, you are a performance artist. With martial skill being the deviding point of what is 'real' and what is not 'real' - it is inevitable that a fight becomes the way to prove the point. If you claim to be a great painter - show us your paintings.

To evaluate something is a natural extension of using your brain. Most of our grey matter is used to identify patterns in a field. This is what your mind does. Now, sometimes the emotional monkey takes over - people get defensive of themselves, others get offended. That is all part of being human. I do agree that the wisest course of action is to persue a mature attitude, and seek non-violent solutions. EXCEPT in the case of martial arts.

It just so happens that my primary lesson to students is one of non-violence. But it is tempered by the concept that some preach pacifism, but others are condemned to it. In evauating the skills that you will risk your life on, I prefer not to so philosophically wishywashy as to assume everyone and everything is equal. Because, unfortunately, we are only equal in the eyes of the law, not in nature. Some branches grow long, and some grow short. You can still be civil, bt you don't have to assume a falsehood in the name of niceness, just because someone a little misguided wants it to be true.

Now, there is a lot of room within this sphere for friendly disagreement, and ranges of opinion. But, if you can't fight and win most of the time, or at least HAD a fighting record, or just can't at least hang with the tough crowd, stop posing as someone who actually knows. If you are down to the coaching phase - show me the fighter that leearned from you.

There is at least one fellow on this thread that has admitted to me that he really does not know enough to teach, yet has been determined to do so. Who says give me a year to train when challenged, then spends that year doing a 500 yard backpedal with Olympic skill. And now is doing his best to be my own personal Tit sa. Here's a tip - if you can't walk the walk, don't be surprised if fighters don't listen when you talk the talk. Sometimes, you really do need a teacher.

The other point that I find difficult to comprehend is the we 'Men' line. As if men are somehow more thick-headed, stupid, and violent than women. The statistics show otherwise. Men are more likely to kill, but woman are just as violent, and just as thick-headed as men. Get over your weak minded politically correctedness - it won't get you laid.

Finally, to have an intellectual discussion about kung fu - there are people on this board, and ones I strongly disagree with who can have solid, good dscussions with. But that does not mean one has to suffer the company of the misguided or foolish without pointing it out.

See my signature below for the Bertrand Russell quote to better undertand...

Finally, I really do like the sentiment of yor last paragraph.

Or, to summarize - the problem with evolving past bashing styles, systems and schools is that some styles, systems and schools suck.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Most enjoyable indeed. It is a lesson in perspective, and how I crafted my first esponse might have struck truer in influencing you if I had taken a moment to consider what your perspective might have been. This is the best part of debate.

Sorry about the ren-fest comment. I just could not resist the impulse as that is where I have seen the most deluded 'martial artists' ever.

Nontheless, it might be good to point out that some of these parables do have specific meanings, that are often difficult to understand outside the context of Zen thought. A 'positive attitude' would not be deemed a 'correct understanding' of that parable. As the attitude discussed is neither positive or negative. It is simply in the moment.

You see, your personal perspective on the parable impacts how you interpret it. But some interpretations, because they lack the other information required for actually understanding it, results in misperceptions.

Now a Zen practitioner will look at your answer and go...hmmm, that is not as correct. And you might go off happily going 'well it's MY answer, and it's true for me' - and it might even offer you some benefit. But when you offer up your solution to others as an example of Zen thought, only those ignorant of it's facets will agree with you.

So in this situation, you can HAVE your relative truth. But you can also be wrong. It is, as they say, a matter of perspective.

[The Willow Sword]

you say "Tomato" i say "Toemahtoe"

Many respects,,,TWS

[Meat Shake]

I say you're putting the ac-cent on the wrong syl lable.