Evolving past bashing styles, systems and schools.

[ninthdrunk]

I think the problem with the bashing on the forums is it is so juvenile. I dont think there is anything wrong with telling someone they are an idiot or their fighting ability is under par....if it can be proven. The first time I posted and made it known I studied sd I had people trying to tell me what I do is worthless and would never hold up. These same people are always bouncing from one argument to another, and will result in the "if it works for you..." TWS pointed out. I will be the first to admit there are bad sd schools, but there are great sd schools out there as well. This is the same for every style. We shouldnt look at what someone studies and say they are an idiot and couldnt fight their way through a bowl of spaghetti if we dont know that. Hell, for all we know someone could be learning tae bo thinking it is a real martial art and they may transform themselves and the "style" into a great fighting art (please do not take this very seriously). Some people come on here with the "my style is better than yours" attitude and they deserve whatever they get. That is like bashing the whole system in one swoop. Truth is we dont know anything about one another, and dont know the true capabilities of a fighter from any system unless we have studied that system and fought that fighter. I think TWS's idea is great. I dont think it will happen, but I am all for doing my part. I havent posted here long, but I have never gotten into the bashing of others. Even when I wanted to (I have erased numerous posts before they made it to public view), nothing would be gained from it. I have heard others talking about how important it is to let newbies know about what styles are good and bad. This is crap. If someone stepped into my teacher's shaolin do school, they would get an awesome experience that would last them a lifetime (if it were right for them), but they could go to another shaolin do school not two states away and have a completely different experience. Lets try to get past the generalizations that are keeping this forum from being a place of intellectual thoughts and insight. Some folks here are doing this on a regular basis and thanks to you. Others are here because they cant cut it in the martial arts real world and feel the need to get a rise out of others....I dont fully understand it myself, but to each his own. I hope this is the start of a new mentality around here. Good luck to everyone.....

Ben

[Golden Tiger]

Monkey Slap two, your Dr analogy reminded me of something. What do you call the person that graduated 1st in their class at Harvard med school? Part 2: what do you call the person that graduated last in his class at University of El Salvodor Med school? Give up? you call them both Doctor!!!

Your analogy has nothing to do with judging , it is more about judgment. Perhaps you little steam engine ran out about half way up the hill.

[CrippledAvenger]

Hi KKM! Get tired of your old login?

[MonkeySlap Too]

GT - trying to use an old joke to dissuade others from using thier critical faculties and discernment is not a good debating skill.

I suggest you reread the posts, and if it is still too difficult to understand, I'd suggest reading a few texts on logic or rhetoric.

[Ralphie]

i disagree with the inevitability that a "fight" becomes the way to prove the point. do you know the story of the "Ronin and the Tea Master"? it is an old japanese story lesson that essentially says that one need not go through the motions to Fight to prove a point or to establish "Your" version of what is real and what is "not".

Your interptretation and the intention of the story are two different things altogether. In fact mst summed it up here:

Nontheless, it might be good to point out that some of these parables do have specific meanings, that are often difficult to understand outside the context of Zen thought. A 'positive attitude' would not be deemed a 'correct understanding' of that parable. As the attitude discussed is neither positive or negative. It is simply in the moment.

It is not that the tea master forgot what lay ahead of him, it's that it is/was irrelevent. The tea master was present, not in the past or future. Action and innaction the same thing; no conflict. Thoughts present, body present, instincts present, emotions present and stable...all seperate and ready to work in conjunction presently. It really is your own personal conflict that you think you have to interpret this seperately from what's at its root. The ronin stopped because he recognized he would be dead if he would have continued. If you want to bring in Karma, he is acting negatively on a neutral element which would have struck him down in bringing balance. He had no chance. He would have effectively killed himself, and that is what brought him to his knees.
In essense, other people's conflicts are there own, and will always continue. Be involved in that, and your own personal conflicts will continue.

This stuff sounds kinda hokie, but this parable is why I pursue martial arts. You can't escape mentally while your're getting smacked around. Pain has a way of pulling you back to reality. Understanding conflict both internally and externally helps you get rid of bs you don't need through resolution (this could just mean innefective ways of fighting). That's why I think the friction that happens here is beneficial to everyone. Even if it rubs some people the wrong way.

[The Willow Sword]

Your interptretation and the intention of the story are two different things altogether. In fact mst summed it up here:

well in your opinion they are two different things. i consider the story and how certain people here on the forums deal with one another linked. from my point of view the story is about Humility.

a haughty and arrogant person decides to challenge another based on what he thinks is going to be an easy win. the person being challenged is just trying to go about his way,,so he humbly confronts the challenger after seeking advice of someone of the same caliber as the challenger( but not as arrogant or haughty).
he there fore confronts the challenger as a friend and raises his sword, which can be intepreted as a raising of awareness, or even a raising of ones spirit in the face of this fear to over come it.
and what was the end result? he did NOT have to fight. He defeated the challenger without having to resort to the violence, hence dealing with people here who bash and trash each other and try to "intellectually" put down the other to make the chattering monkey feel better about himself and what he does.
i use the parable in this context for it is a deeper understanding of the process by which we deal with one another,,besides,,you never really KNOW who you are dealing with unless you really confront them,,and not as an antagonist, it doesnt have to be that way does it? i dont think so.
your intepretation of the Ronin and the tea master and mine are valid ones. but to say that the other is mis intepreting because he feels HE is right and the other is wrong? that is arrogant presumption,,thats ego. thats the haughty and unscrupulous Ronin.
i am trying to be the tea master now,,for i have been the ronin too much here,, and i am tired of it. and since this is a free country and i can express my views and opinions here on this forum, i am doing so now.

Many Respects,,TWS

[MonkeySlap Too]

Willow, I think you will find the same amount of acceptance for your interpretation of the Ronin and the Tea Master among Zen practitioners, as you found for SD among legit CMA players.

This is not a case of multiple interpretations. You are layrering on an interpretation that fits your knowledge level, but it demonstrates that you do not understand the parable. You would be better off making up your own parable rather than trying to force your interpretation on this one.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Now this will not go down well with some of the guys here:

For me MA study is about conflicts and conflict resolution, may they be personal, intellectual, physical or whatever.
Reducing MA to solely the desire to win, fights, punching, kicking and so on is doing a great disservice to the MA and their founders, IMHO.

MA if trained and understood correctly will help the practicioner in EVERY aspect of life to prosper and enrich himself and the people around him.

Before you can control and try to beat others, you first need to control yourself and be master of yourself.

I wonder how many people have faced an opponent that was full of focus and intent that they KNEW that they were powerless to do anything against said opponent.

Anyhuh, let the flames begin.

[MonkeySlap Too]

TJM - no one really disagrees with your point here, you are missing the gist of the disagreement.

TWS feels that there is not a 'correct' interpretation of a specific lesson in a zen parable, and that HIS interpretation is equally valid even though it demonstrates a lack of knowledge required to get the context of the parable. And furthermore, to challenge his thought process, to point out that he MIGHT be incorrect, is simply haughty ego.

NOw I ask you - where is the ego? Hmmm?

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

MST.

As far as I understand ZEN there are no correct or wrong interpretations, it is the study and search that is more important than the goal.

Question for you:
"When is there no snow on Mount Everest."
Do you know the answer to the question?

As for ego I see 2 at work here TWS and yours.

[The Willow Sword]

Peace,Prosperity and Longevity to You and your Family MST


Many Respects,,,TWS

[SevenStar]

You're not gonna win a debate (or a fight) with MST. Resistance is futile.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by SevenStar
You're not gonna win a debate (or a fight) with MST. Resistance is futile.

I am not debating, fighting nor resisting.


If I wanted I could get involved into a debate as to why saying "interpretation X is correct" is a violation of Zen principles and philosphy.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Actually, Taiji Monkey, you are incorrect. In the case of a parable, such as the Ronin and the Tea master, there is a specific meaning. A 'correct' interpretation.

You should not confuse these with Koans, which are designed to stretch the mind beyond logical thought - although many koans also have answers that are 'more correct than others'.

Just because Zen in its practice is deconstructionist towards the mind, it does not mean the entry level information - the parables - do not have a specific meaning. They do. But sometimes it requires some basic understanding of the culture and the beleif system to get it.

I was just pointing out that TWS did not know those things, and from his POV created a meaning that made sense to him, but was not the actual point of the story.

See my Bertrand Russell quote below.

Oh, and saying I have an ego is no surprise to me. But I do try to be accurate and factual. You will find that if I am presented new info that provides a better understanding of something, I am very capable of admitting my error. I find it a rather specious argument tha keeps popping up on this board that if you somehow are able to present a logcal argument, it is your ego at play. As if that is a bad thing.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Originally posted by MonkeySlap Too
Actually, Taiji Monkey, you are incorrect. In the case of a parable, such as the Ronin and the Tea master, there is a specific meaning. A 'correct' interpretation.

My Boss(Japanese) who is heavily into Zen for most of his life would disagree with you there.

His argument is that you cannot know the "correct" interpretation as you are not the person that created the parable nor knew his intent/mindset.

All we can do is guess and, yes, there are accepted interpretations, but being accepted does not make them 100% true or the sole one.

Anyhuh, not the discussion for this forum.