Reverting to Kung Fu

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by SifuAbel

In general I get tired of people whom have no CMA experience at all telling ME what real kung fu is.(Not a person jibe, just a rant)

So what exactly then is real Kung Fu Abel? (serious question)

I've thought about this a lot, and what I've come up with is:

1. Structure. A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA
2. Yielding. Although I could be seeing more of this than most because of my Taiji background.

3. This is a maybe. Power generation? The boxing I'm doing generates power by pushing off the ground on the strike. The CMA I've learned sinks into the ground rather than pushes off of it. This is a maybe because there probably are CMA systems that push off the ground. I just haven't seen them personally.

[Musicalkatachmp]

Good thread

[truewrestler]

In general I get tired of people whom have no CMA experience at all telling ME what real kung fu is.(Not a person jibe, just a rant)

I understand... especially because when I put REAL in all caps it signifies sarcasm. What I mean is what most people (99%) perceive as REAL Kung Fu is not real Kung Fu as far as real fighting goes.

When someone says Cung Le or any kickboxer with a kung fu background is not using real kung fu then they are ignorant.... these are the same people that say someone "degraded to kickboxing" simply because that person used basic attacks, stances and defense. It has nothing to do with them being sloppy... unless that means it doesn't look like REAL Kung Fu.

[Tak]

1. Structure. A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA

Agreed.

2. Yielding. Although I could be seeing more of this than most because of my Taiji background.

There's an aspect of yielding in all the CMA I've experienced, and that yielding leads into counters, locks, throws, etc, that you expect from "real kung fu."

3. This is a maybe. Power generation? The boxing I'm doing generates power by pushing off the ground on the strike. The CMA I've learned sinks into the ground rather than pushes off of it. This is a maybe because there probably are CMA systems that push off the ground. I just haven't seen them personally.

Hmm. American boxing may have less of a focus on rooting because it doesn't have to deal with the risks of being thrown or having your legs taken out from under you. However, a wrestler (or a boxer with a wrestling background) would probably have more of a CMAlike rooting/power generation methodology.

[fa_jing]

Regarding yielding - I see it in Western Boxing when a fighter is up against the ropes, then side steps out of there. That's something I really need to work on - getting away from the strict forward and back fencing-like movement that most of we intermediate students suffer from....Rolling with the punches is another example.

Just an observation.

[fa_jing]

I really like some western boxers and I see alot of what I'm working towards present in their fighting style. My recent favorite is Kostya Tzyu - lots of straight punches, great, stiff jab, can jab with the right hand too....good power for his size, intelligent fighter. Good movement, great left hook. His Wing Chun is excellent.

[Christopher M]

Well, boxing is very sophisticated and when put in a crude and limiting arena like a training hall, it tends to degrade into a crude and limited art, such as kungfu. This doesn't mean there's anything wrong with boxing, just with entering training halls, which you'd only do if you had a huge ego anyway.

[SifuAbel]

Originally posted by truewrestler
I understand... especially because when I put REAL in all caps it signifies sarcasm. What I mean is what most people (99%) perceive as REAL Kung Fu is not real Kung Fu as far as real fighting goes.

When someone says Cung Le or any kickboxer with a kung fu background is not using real kung fu then they are ignorant.... these are the same people that say someone "degraded to kickboxing" simply because that person used basic attacks, stances and defense. It has nothing to do with them being sloppy... unless that means it doesn't look like REAL Kung Fu.

fair enough......... in Cung le's example yes, However the majority of times its because of the slop fest some fights turn into.

The term was used first to describe slop slingers, THEN it evolved to include the movie land bunch.

[SifuAbel]

" Hmm. American boxing may have less of a focus on rooting because it doesn't have to deal with the risks of being thrown or having your legs taken out from under you. However, a wrestler (or a boxer with a wrestling background) would probably have more of a CMAlike rooting/power generation methodology."


Yes, this is why i don't concider myself to be a "stand up" fighter in the strict sense of the phrase.

[Merryprankster]

A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA

You MUST be joking. Wrestling, Judo and BJJ are ENTIRELY about structure. Everything in these arts focuses on breaking the opponents structure while maintaining yours.

As much as we agree on many points, I completely disagree with your statement above.

[Water Dragon]

I'm sorry merryprankster. I musta missed the wrestling class where you spend 3 hours figuring out how to line up your body so that the other guy can push you full force and you don't move even though you're forcing your muscle to stay relaxed.

I think I also must missed the class where you put your body in the end postion of the cross, and then have your partner swing the heavy bag at you so you must maintain your structure as the 100 pound bag hits your fist. Again, force yourself to keep yopur muscles relaxed.

I think I also missed the class where the guy runs at you and you have to bounce him out without using muscle or adjusting your footwork.

Since wrestling, BJJ, and judo put the exact same focus on structure that the CMA do, I know those drills must be worked on pretty regularly.

[truewrestler]

MP, you don't do REAL Kung Fu like Water Dragon

WD, what does what you just described have to do with fighting?

I musta missed the wrestling class where you spend 3 hours figuring out how to line up your body so that the other guy can push you full force and you don't move even though you're forcing your muscle to stay relaxed.

Actually wrestling is pretty old so someone already figured this one out.

I think I also must missed the class where you put your as the 100 pound bag hits your fist. Again, force yourself to keep yopur muscles relaxed.

Is this used for the Kung Fu anti-grappling tackle defense where you stick your fist out and the attacker runs into it?

I think I also missed the class where the guy runs at you and you have to bounce him out without using muscle or adjusting your footwork.

Oops, he picked me up.... but I thought I was rooted well

Water Dragon, you should try getting a position with a football team as the structure training coach

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by truewrestler

WD, what does what you just described have to do with fighting?

OK, even though you insist on being a dumfukk, I'll break it down as best I can. The main idea we are dealing with here is slack. The human body has a natural amopunt of slack in it because we have joints. Because of this, we also leak forc through our joints. If I can train my body to accept or emit force, without slack, I have just become more efficient. Not only can I deliver more power with less effort, I can also take more of YOUR force with less effort.

If you take a staff, and hold it against a wall and walk into it,it's gonna hurt. Why? no slack. If you take the same staff, cut it in half, and then tie the 2 halves together, it wont hurt near as much if you walk into it. Why? There's now a lot of slack.

And FYI, I do practice real Kung Fu. I also practice real Muay Thai and real boxing and real NHB under a guy with 32-0 Vale Tudo record. So what's your fukking point?

[CrippledAvenger]

truewrestler,

WD and I work out with the Shooto guys in Hammond. One of our trainers is fighting on the Ironheart Crown card on the 22nd. We're not the silk pj type, so you might want to reconsider what you're saying.

Edit: see above.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by truewrestler
WD, what does what you just described have to do with fighting?

I believe the sorts of things he's describing can be understood simply as training to move with strength.

There's, of course, a great many ways of carrying your body that make it more able to exert and constructively deal with force; a simple example being keeping some space in your armpits rather than resting your bicep against your ribs. One goal of this kind of training is to learn to move while continously adopting that sort of strong posture, rather than only starting and ending in strong postures with weak postures during transitional movements, which is what people tend to do more instinctively.