Reverting to Kung Fu

[Merryprankster]

Please leave my body parts, and whether or not we've touched them, out of this thread.

Thanks.

[Water Dragon]

Originally posted by truewrestler
Why do you assume that I assumed that?

I didn't... I'm just talking about the drills that WD described that some how make KF "special"

I never said special, and I don't believe that. I said different. If Kung Fu was special, why would I waste my time with Boxing and Muay Thai?

Boxing is DIFFERENT from Muay Thai. Muay Thai is DIFFERENT from Savate. Savate is DIFFERENT from Judo. Judo may or may not be different than BJJ, but both are DIFFERENT than Folk Wrestling. Folk Wrestling is DIFFERENT from Shuai Chiao which is DIFFERENT than Xing Yi.

Each one is special in that they are unique training methods to gain specific skill sets.

Show me where I ever claimed Kung Fu was 'special' and I'll make a big ol apology thread for ya Truewrestler.

[truewrestler]

LOL

Even better... I'll try to restrain myself from making any more gay comments all together on this forum from here on out (unless provoked)

[truewrestler]

A lot of arts have good structure by necesity, but no one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA

This was your comment. Please explain what you meant by "not one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA".

Would you say boxing doesn't get into punching as deeply as the CMA? Please explain.

Sorry if I misunderstood but I found the following comments aggressively stating that KF training methods are better.

I'm sorry merryprankster. I musta missed the wrestling class where you spend 3 hours figuring out how to line up your body so that the other guy can push you full force and you don't move even though you're forcing your muscle to stay relaxed.

I think I also must missed the class where you put your body in the end postion of the cross, and then have your partner swing the heavy bag at you so you must maintain your structure as the 100 pound bag hits your fist. Again, force yourself to keep yopur muscles relaxed.

I think I also missed the class where the guy runs at you and you have to bounce him out without using muscle or adjusting your footwork.

Since wrestling, BJJ, and judo put the exact same focus on structure that the CMA do, I know those drills must be worked on pretty regularly.

[backbreaker]

I try not to criticise other styles even if I think I could beat them because how can you know for sure.I do beleive all styles are unique.Many styles use things like structure,and different ways to generate power.And I'm sure all these styles develop alot of qi whether they have awareness of what they're doing or not.But I beleive internal CMA's anyways,are distinguished by pathways of energy generation which primarily begins in the dan tien and travels outwards down the legs to the ground and also out to the hands.Energy can also be collected inwards with nuetralizing,and also released back outwards in any direction,even behind you with your back or the back of your shoulder.This is supposed to become instantly neutralize and immediatly attack from a different angle all in one single movement,not many complicated combos.I beleive static and slow movements are important to ensure that your movements are seemless and completed through to their end,this is how you can instantly change techniques(like a chin na lock).Martial arts qigong also develops perfectly balanced leg strength.My impression of kungfu in a fight ,is that it would involve redirecting or neutralizing the opponents strikes,countering with a strike,kicking and knees, immediately clinch,don't walk into a punch but I think kungfu will be very strong in the clinch using shuai chiao throws and chin na to make the opponent go into a sommersault or at least spin around horizontally.I beleive if your stance is strong(and especially very relaxed)and you can withstand someone running at you,how can they pick you up with their arm strength if their body momentum is gone.From what I've seen,when someone gets picked up,they were first put off balance and made to stumble backward by the original force of the shoot,then they get picked up..Then you neutralize and redirect them with your energy internally and make em spin around while getting floor burn.

[CrippledAvenger]

Originally posted by truewrestler
This was your comment. Please explain what you meant by "not one I've seen gets into it as deeply as the CMA".

Would you say boxing doesn't get into punching as deeply as the CMA? Please explain.

Sorry if I misunderstood but I found the following comments aggressively stating that KF training methods are better.

A boxing coach won't sit there and correct the structural alignment of your forearm. He's more concerned with you doing the proper motions with the hips, punching from the legs, keeping your elbows down and your head up. Boxers tend to worry more about the mechanics than structure. (I boxed before I did Muay Thai).

By contrast, the CMA's I've seen worry much more about how your arm is structured at impact, how your body absorbs and redirects force, and how well you can hold the proper alignment. It's a different focus from boxing. Do I find it harder to learn? Yep. Do I think it's worthless, nope. It's just very goal-specific.

All Larry was saying in those comments is that the CMAs do things a little differently than the arts in question. They're not better, but they're not completely the same, (as I can see a little more clearly now, having done both) either. It's not elitism to note the differences between the two. Saying one would destroy the other one or is far superior without any evidence in support, however, is.

For the record, I'd like to state that I have the utmost respect for Merry. I just think he's not quite getting the distinction on this point. C'est la vie. I'm off to lunch.

[fa_jing]

backbreaker -
"This is supposed to become instantly neutralize and immediatly attack from a different angle all in one single movement,not many complicated combos"

"My impression of kungfu in a fight ,is"


"Supposed to" and "my impression" is a poor way to learn Kung Fu, and an even poorer way of discussing it in mixed company.

I'm not trying to pick on you. I understand you are a new poster here. If you want to discuss further please PM me.

[backbreaker]

I just use these terms because I don't want to sound like I think I'm an authority on martial arts.Also I beleive chinese martial arts are difficult to learn well so I'm not trying to sound absolute or that I know"proven facts,because I saw ufc 1".If I sound incomprehensible or like I'm rambling to you,sorry.I just thought I'd throw in my opinion.

[Meat Shake]

Just one thing... put a space after periods. Makes it kinda hard to read, looks real strung together.

[fa_jing]

backbreaker - understood. But I think we should reserve judgement entirely, until we can make whatever it is work for ourselves.

[lkfmdc]

I told myself I was going to stay out of this mess, I swore it, I posted a little mild something, then went on my way, I guess I am not content being happy

I am about to dive face first into a storm, oh well, here we go..

My opinion, first we need to make definition #1, there is stuff that works and then there is crap, no need to talk about the crap...

I can probably get away with that one?

Of the stuff that works, I am going to start the controversial stuff here, girls, hold onto your boyfriends, take the children out of the room

All the S H I T is the same. It is only a matter of how the material is presented and how it is trained.

A wrestler thinks of techniques to win his match, he doesn't have any "high theory" but it is all there.

When he "bases out" he is sinking his daan tin.

His front body lock works because he is breaking and raising the other person's daan tin.

When he ankle picks, he is weighting his opponent, his "pummeling" is "push hands", by that I mean REAL PUSH HANDS and not the granola new age fruit cake crap that is done here so often. Anyone ever seen teh Chen village push hands championships?

The ONLY difference between Folk Style wrestling and Shuai Jiao is the JACKET, it is ALL wrestling.... People have vested interest in saying otherwise, but I really have to say it, it isn't true. It is all just "wrestling"... The reason former Soviet athletes kicked butt in everything from Greco-Roman to Judo, to Free Style to Sambo was that their sports program looked at it exactly that way, ie it was all just "wrestling"....

REAL "kung fu fighting" isn't any more about secret weasal death touches than western boxing is limited to what Lennox Lewis does. Read more about the history of boxing, especially in the bare knuckle days, you'll find characters that will remind you of Kung Fu Sifu! Back to Elliott Gorn's book, or look up Sydney Anglo's book on Renaissance martial arts!!!!!!!!

Well executed technique is a combination of proper strategy, proper physical execution and proper body mechanics. As the human body is the same whether you identify yourself as a "boxer" of "Shaolin monk", the similarities are astounding if you take a closer look....

Maybe I didn't make ANY sense with this post, maybe I started another flame war, but I felt like sharing anyway

[red5angel]

makes sense to me.

[Tak]

Jacket? We don't use jackets. Maybe I'm in the minority?

[fa_jing]

lkfmdc you are soooo wrong, I don't know where to start......










(j/k)

I think there may be some slight differences between application of arts, but the real differences lie in conceptualization and approach. The end result is practically the same. And it is fair to characterize these results using terms that are familiar to us. For example, your Wing Chun/Jow Ga/Lama/TaiJi horizontal/vertical/inverted/45 degree fist, are you using it as:

A jab?
A cross?
A hook?
A shovel hook?
A bolo punch?
A backfist?

Etc.

[Water Dragon]

But Coach Ross, you yourself have claimed in the past that many MMA guys who have walked into your gym have no idea what hit them. Why? because even though you use jab, cross, hook, and uppercut, the fighting theory is Chinese and that makes it different. <-- Ideas you yourself have posted on the kickboxing forum on mma.tv

So, if everything is the same, your guys couldn't have wowed the mma guys, because they would have seen it somewhwere already. And if they did get whooped on by your boys because you are showing them something different, what you just posted above is false.

So which idea is wrong? The one you posted on mma.tv or the one you posted on this thread? <-- lame attempt by H2O at playing devil's advocate