Sparing

[nospam]

So, when you folks spar in-kwoon, do you 'go at it' more often than not? Meaning putting power into your movements or do you spar softer, meaning you try to work more on the flow and interchange of fighting?

[Robinf]

Depends on my mood (and no, that's not a "female perogative" thing). It also depends on who I'm up against. There are a couple of guy in my kwoon, the black belts, who are also weight lifters. They insist you go hard on them, but they will only go fast on you, with a little pop to it (enough to shock and/or smart, but not enough to injure). They're fun.

There's another guy in my dojang, 6'4", 230-240 lbs brown belt, been in it for years, but stopped for a while. OK. I'm 5'4", 120 lbs., is it really necessary to through a crecent or a spin hook kick over my head or push me into the wall with a push front or a side kick? I wail on him, but it doesn't phase him at all! It pushes me back (he's got a solid paunch stomach)! Drives me nuts.

With my training partner, we'll start off soft to practice the flow and techniques. Then, we end up going pretty hard (she and I are about the same size, she has 1" and about 15 pounds on me, so we're a good match up). That's in TKD.

In kung fu, except with the black belts, I try to work on flow. I've only been doing it two years, and I need a lot of practice. Besides, I get to go hard in TKD, so I have the luxury of being able to practice technique in kung fu before I have to be concerned with power.

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Surrender yourself to nature, and be all that you are.

[nospam]

Depends on my mood (and no, that's not a "female perogative" thing). [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

So, with your training partner you lay the smack down? Medium contact with mittens and helmets?

About the Bear (the 6'4", 230-240 lbs brown belt), besides the fun of just sparring the dude, would you not think it more productive to run 2-person drills where you punt his knee cap across the room or drop low and fast then off to the side as you cup his balls and Monkey Picks The Fruit?

You prolly already doing this Robinf, but I thought I'd share anywho...its just the kinda guy I is [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

Train hard and sweat fast!

[JWTAYLOR]

I know this is going to sound corney but if you aren't doing both flow and power you are missing the point of your sparring.
I told you it would sound corney.
But come on, I want to hit you allot and I want to hit you as hard as it takes to accomplish my goal.
In sparring, my goal is to keep you from hurting me, and to maintain a dominant position while controlling you. This control can be with strikes or throws or grappling, but I want to keep the control.
To do this, I have to have good, constant flow, and many times I'm going to have to use a decent amount of power. Most of the folks that I spar with come away pretty bruised, maybe a little bloody, but rarely broken.
And just so that I don't come off sounding arrogant (which is hard when you're as good as I am, -that was dripping sarcasm) I've got to tell you that I'm usually the one that comes out on the loosing end of the injury tally.
Of course, spar light with new folks so that you don't scare them away. Above all, treat sparring as a learning tool. And as a "testing" ground.
JWT

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If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Robinf]

Thanks for the tips, nospam. Just like a brother to look out for a sister [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]. Unfortunately, the big guy is only in my TKD, kinda limited as to what I can do when we spar.

JWT,
I agree with you, and you don't sound corny. Actually, you wouldn't sound corny if I didn't agree with you. What is the point of sparring if you don't press your limits and see where you can go? Practicing aim and techique is highly important, but also practicing hitting the guy and getting hit. The first time I took a punch to the face, shocked me so much I actually stopped for a minute. Now, I hardly notice--and I've learned to block...most of the time.

It's actually good conditioning to go harder, taking breaks inbetween. My legs and arms don't bruise as easily any more.

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Surrender yourself to nature, and be all that you are.

[nospam]

Hey JWTAYLOR,

I don't believe that full power sparring is necessary all of the time. If you like doing that and there are others around that also enjoy this 'fight clubbing' sorta practise, then good for yas, but it isn't necessary to effect one's kung fu.

When I read your post, it sounds more like a contest than a learning tool. It is your ability vs. another's. There can be some learning, and hopefully whenever you engage in kung fu activity you do learn, but sparring to 'be victorious' will invariably turn into performance of skill than true learning. We all want to do and be the best we can- sometimes that means being better than someone, but in my experience this sort of prastise leads to more detrimental (dis)ability (bad habits and such) than working towards perfecting one's ability.

It's an outlook, and I'm not saying your way is the wrong way, just that in my not so humble opinion, it is not the best way. Boxing works on this all-out methodology, but there is less to perfect in Western boxing than Chinese boxing. And I think this is one of the problems plaguing kung fu today, it breeds more kick-boxing fighters than kung fu fighters.

You might be an exception to my comments, but I'll still stand by my opinion. I think there are better 2-person exercises to practise and teach than free sparring. I see free-sparring as something you work into slowly as an extension of 2-person drills and exercises. The highest form of free-sparring would then be competition, where my ability is pitted against yours. I do not and would not enter into this engagement as a learning session, but one of loose or win. The only difference between free-sparring and actual fighting is lethality. Leathality encompassing targeting, technique, and level of intent.

So then, back to my initial question, how many of youse free spar all out as general practise vs other methods of skill enhancement?

I will add, I do not like to fight. I enjoy training and learning kung fu and do not kid myself as to its use, but if at all cost I would rather walk away from someone then stick it back into their face. I have sparred fast and furious for years, but have changed my perspective since then (youth..heh heh, not that nospammers is old or anythang like that). I also do not do kung fu just for the moves, that is to say to just 'look good', I do that naturally [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

I don't want to turn this into a philosophical discussion, its been done before and prolly will be again. This is about practise and methodology, not philosophy. Increasing speed and power to 2-person exercises must be done and things will esculate, but free form sparring, unless done with specific objectives, is nothing more than in-kwoon competition.

[JWTAYLOR]

Nospam

Don't get me wrong, neither I nor my training partners go full power. We'd be killing ourselves. Nobody likes that. My goal isn't to hurt my partner, but it is to make the techniques work.
For instance, if I wanted to throw a punch so that I could set up a kick, I would need to punch hard enough to actually move my opponent back to give me the space I need to execute the kick.
As far as competitions, sure, I try to win. I hate learning how to be punched, thrown on the the ground and stomped over and over. After the first dozen times I generally get the feeling down pretty well. It hurts.
That said, if I'm sparring a person of lower skill I try to teach. I give them some openings to exploit, I try to help them know what will work and when it won't, by example.
But, when I spar someone better than me, I exploit any opening I can see, and I do my best to be go give as much as I get.
Given, our upper belt sparring sessions are pretty rough. Much "harder" than any point competition I've been to, and even harder than many of the "full contact" tournaments I've been to. We include the the whole body as a target, especially the groin. Going to the ground is ok, attacking a downed opponent is expected. Our contact rules are set between opponents only. There are no school rules for contact. The match is not over until someone gives up or an instructor stops it. We loose allot of people when they get to this level because they don't want to spar. I can empathize.
JWT

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If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Kung Lek]

Hello all

My views on sparring have changed over time.

At first I was highly competitive and didn't use the learning process associated with sparring.
But now, it is more of a mutual learning process to me.

In effect, there is power and speed in varying measure dependent upon the skills of those who are sparring.
Contact is increased with students of equal ability and good knowledge whereas contact is decreased with the more inexperienced.

One attacks and the other applies techniques to those attacks and the exchanges continue as each person learns howto more effectively apply the techniques from the systems taught.

It is a great learning experience now and I am finding that my ability to actually use Kung Fu in an altercation atmosphere has improved immensly from the practice of sparring co-operatively as opposed to competitively.

peace

[Golden Child]

I found, that once I proved to myself that I was a capable fighter then sparring became much less competitive and more of a learning tool. In short, as my ego diminished my learning increased. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]
JWTaylor you always have some informative posts just curious about what style you train in and where?

[JWTAYLOR]

Check the profile.
I've been training American Kenpo in Austin, TX for about 18 years now and Chang Style Tai Chi and Elephant Style Kung fu for about 8 months or so.
Both are here in Austin, TX but I travel allot to NYC, Sante Fe NM, and Washington DC if you're in one of those areas.

JWT

[Golden Child]

Osss JWT, I used to train Kenpo under Sifu Steve Kern in San Antonio for a little over a year. I believe (if my memory serves me correctly) his Sifu is Sifu Schmidt. Later, I moved up to Anchorage,Alaska and I'm currently learning the Wu Tang styles (Mantis, Baji, Tai Chi and Bagua). I kinda figured you trained Kenpo when you were referred to your sparring sessions in your previous posts. Peace!

[JWTAYLOR]

Osss right back at you. Hey it's been a while since I've heard those names. When did you study with Kern? My lineage goes by way of Parker, then Duffy. But Duffy trained under Sifu Swan in San Antonio first so we still see the SA crew allot.
I have noticed that we spar allot harder than most of the other arts around. But I've also noticed that all of the Texas schools are like that. I don't know if you've done any tournaments but the illegal contact rules are not so heavily enforced here like in the more wussilaneous states like CA. I can't see out of my left eye right now as I got a thumb to it on Saturday.
BTW, my dad was a commecial fisher man and I lived in Anchorage myself for a couple of years as a tike. Too young to remember that time but my visits since then have just been great. Beautiful country up there.
Osss,
JWT

[Jaguar Wong]

sparring is pretty important, because it's almost like a rude awakening for some people. Everyone likes to think that once they reach a certain level, they can no longer be defeated by lower level students. The truth is that anyone can beat anyone else depending on many different circumstances. I have no doubt that JWT can handle himself (anybody that goes to a Dog Brothers Gathering can work through pain [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]). I also have no doubt that Robin could do just as well if she had to defend herself, cause she tangles with some big boys over there. What I'm saying is that if you don't at least know what it's like to have someone (skilled or not) throwing the punches at ya, then it's really going to be a huge shock when it does happen.

I don't really spar that much at my school anymore, becuase all of the rough and tumble guys have left, and all the new people don't want to tangle like we used to do back in the day (only about 2-3 years ago, but it feels like an eternity). I do agree that you don't need to spar for blood, but I don't want to play tag like everyone else, so I just play every once and a while with the older students that are still there. (usualy just some medium contact Chi Sao, but sometimes we spar). I guess I just feel like my stuff jus' don't work anymore, cause I haven't been able to really test it in a long while. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif[/img]

JWT:
The tournament scene here in Vegas is pretty sissified. just playin' tag in the sparring divisions, and doing gymnastics in the forms divisions. I'm just now beginning to think that my retirement was a good idea [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

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Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com

[Robinf]

Jaguar,

Good to see you back.

I agree with you holeheartedly, that sparring is a good awakening. The first time you take a hit, even a light one, is jarring. If you don't build up some conditioning to it, then you have a disadvantage in a self-defense situation.

Sorry to hear that sparring has lightened up at your school. But, I've found that people start coming around to wanting to spar harder after a while. They just need a little confidence and to understand that in the kwoon, it's all in fun (and training).

[nospam]

Hi Robinf,

I would like to use your words to bemoan a point I waas trying to make in my 'generations' post on the main board.

"They just need a little confidence and to understand that in the kwoon, it's all in fun (and training)."

I realise 'fun' is a very subjective term, but when it gets down to sparring, 'fun' should not be in anyone's mind, otherwise all you are doing is playing. I also realise that 'fun' is why many continue to take martial arts and learning can be fun, but any kind of actual fighting is not fun (for 99% of the population). If your sparring is fun, then I believe you are missing an intregal element of sparring conditioning. For those who do not know what element, then read 'generations' for a better idea.

I believe 'fun' should be moderated in anyone's (adult) training, and restricted even more when it gets down to fighting (sparring) practise. If not, then in my opinion, it is tag.

Obviously it is a good thing that we all share vastly different opinions, as this works itself out by increasing the chance that some where out there, there's a kwoon doing just the sort of thang you're looking for. And I comment on this as an observation and personal practise/belief, not as a judgement on what anyone might or might not be doing.

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