value of forms/katas

[drunkenostrich]

YES KUNGFUKID, i am an instructor for MASTER SHAEFER at his SAN MARCOS SCHOOL and i just opened up my school in LULING. i am a second degree black belt disciple who has been assisting MASTER SHAEFER for over two years.
I am originally from Louisville. i have lived here in texas most of my life but i still get up there to seminars and tournaments, and my father lives in louisville. i like your perspectives on the subject at hand. i hold those views myself. oh and my name is Jason. ginsuedog has some intelligent points to make sometimes
but i feel like he talks before he thinks. this original subject was about the value of forms and katas. i still maintain that the forms make you a fighter, and i am quoting directly from Master Mullins on this. and from my own experience. GINSUEDOG;where do you reside? and what style of MA do you study? does your school do many forms or none at all? from your reply to my last posts on the subject i would conclude that you do not do forms and if you do, you do not feel that they are important in your fighting. that test still stands in my last post and if you are in the texas area then i invite you to my school in LULING for an exchange of ideas and to spar,,,let me know and i will make good on my test, i will train only in forms and that is all and you train however you see fit and then lets spar and see who is right and who needs ice. you can bring the ice. respectfully ,,,JASON

[GinSueDog]

Drunkenostrich,
I currently study Jeet Kune Do Concepts and BJJ, in the past I have studied Muay Thai and Jun Fan JKD. At the moment most of my efforts are focused on ground fighting. The only traditional style I have studied was Shotokan Karate when I was living in Hawaii as a kid. I live in Southern California at the moment in the Orange County area. If you wish to exchange ideas my email address is listed in my profile. Feel free to email me.-ED

[kungfukid]

Drunkenostrich,
I kind of figured you were a student of Master Schaffer. I had the pleasure of meeting him when the SDA Tournament was
in Louisville. He is a very nice person.
Have you ever met my instructor, Barry
Webb? Have you met Master Eric Smith? He's the one that really, really opened my eyes in the last five years of my 14 years trek through MA. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, GET TO KNOW THIS MAN. Do you have AOL instant messenger?
if you do plug in master spw into your buddy list and chat with me some time. That goes for anybody on this discussion board. What are you working on now Drunkenosterich?

Kungfukid

[IB_casual30]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robinf:
Keep in mind, the human body has not changed from the time all the styles and forms/kata were invented and revised and reformed and continued. They are as relevent today as they were at first inception.

If you took the time to stick around and actually study an art, you would see that.

This is not to offend you. I'm sure your martial art is quite useful--practicing fighting for 15 years, you're bound to be good, and I applaud your efforts.

[/quote]
999999999999999999999
i too was a self tuaght for many years ,.. and oddly your choice of example is in itself
self tuaght but tried and true ,.. the monkey's that guarded the founder fo that style had themselves learned in nature to fight diffrently from each the other even though they are of the same species,..
point being,.. the movements of the kata are the movements that are effective in fooling the eye and drawing dominate of passive fear from a foe,...

p.s. please excuse my dyslexia


------------------
seek the tao and the void forgetting all catagory,..
letting engery wich wishes to exist , exist.

[drunkenostrich]

Well KUNGFUKID i am just working on my 2nd degree material, trying to figure it all out.
i have been fortunate to get the material early on(before 2nd dgree and before that) so i dont have that much to get..but i am in no hurry to get the stuff or test. i have focused my training on the internal systems and MASTER ERIC SMITH is definately someone who i would like to train with sometime, he came down and had a seminar on the candle thing. i got to meet him then. i dont have aol by the way. did you go to the snake pakua seminar this weekend? i already have sections one and two..i am waiting for GMSThe' to re-teach the 3,4,5 sections which i dont have. would love to learn some snake forms, i haer that he is going to teach out somes forms if there is enough interest in the snake pakua seminars. i was at the louisville tournament in september of last year. i did mad drunk fist and drunken braodsword for my competition forms. the judges dont seem to like those forms as much.
but oh well i just do it to have fun anyway.
the drunk forms are a crowd pleaser. my e-mail address is CETANSKA@BCSNET.NET drop me a line sometime,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sincerely,,,jason

[kungfukid]

Drunenosterich,

I received my 1st black in june 1999. Not to brag (I'm pretty proud of this though) I got a perfect score. I am currently working on
tai chi and Pa Kua. They are shaping up to be my favorite forms, as far as applications are concerned. I am also working on the candle training. I've made quite a bit of progress in four months. I am at the point where I can vibrate my body and extinguish the flame from about 1 1/2 feet away. With a palm strike I've been able to do it from 3 feet away. Distance is a kicker for me. Also, being able to control my chi. I've inadvertantly dispersed chi into sparring partners a couple of times. I put a dime-sized bruise on a partner when I struck him using a mantis strike. He said his ribs hurt for days. Funny thing was I hit him no harder than i would if I were tapping the table when nervous. Go fig.

I won't be able to attend any of the seminars unfortunately. I am moving to Florida in three weeks and that is a hell of a commute for a seminar. However, I heard rumors about Master Eric Smith moving to Naples which is not far from where I'll be.
If he does, more than likely I'll try to study with him. I will certainly drop you an email in the future, if not today. My address is pakua78@netscape.net.

Sincerely,

Stephen.

[This message has been edited by kungfukid (edited 06-13-2000).]

[drunkenostrich]

COOL. wait until you get the hsing-i training
at 2nd degree(if it has not been taught out to you already) the hsing -i training is perfect for controlling how much you wish to channel into someone. when i spar i keep it under wraps,because i dont want to waste anything energy wise. also i do not wish to internally damage another should i strike a point, sounds like you skated by with just bruising your opponent, careful. i know mantis all too well to be poking folks in sparring. heh heh i was sparring a guy once in the school and i threw a mantis claw at his face and accidentally stuck my finger up his nose. it was controlled but very gross and very funny at the same time......thats all for now...

[purpledragon]

jeizen, don't take this the wrong way but what's with all of Prof Dons black belts in so many styles, even styles without black belts? I mean 8 black belts? He probably knows what he's doing but he needs to rethink his PR. I always get a little irritated when guys name a style after themselves. Do you study with him personally?

Please allow me to interject. I do know the Professor personally, he has 36 schools worldwide and has done nothing but study martial arts, and teach martial arts for the past 37 years. I have seen his techniques in person, experienced his techniques. I think his PR is working just fine. What difference does the name of the style make? The techniques, which are road tested work. I'm sad to say I had the opportunity when someone attempted to mug me with pepper spray a couple of years ago. You can see his seminars all over the Caribbean, in Miami and New York, and in Vancouver Canada. You are right he knows what he's doing.

[shog]

Here is a page regarding kata, that I wrote for the manual for my style:

The Essence of Kata
Kata is one of the central training methods used in the teaching of many styles of Karate-Do and can be defined as a pattern of blocking, evading and counter-attack methods that are executed against one or more hypothetical opponents who may be armed or unarmed. Progress with Kata is inherently up to the student.

When practicing, students should be aware of the common elements of correct kata:

&#183; Eye control
&#183; Breath control
&#183; Power control
&#183; Speed control
&#183; Zanshin
&#183; Physiological Factors (joints, major muscle movement, posture, vital points, etc)
&#183; Visualization

The implementation of kata must embrace these seven elements while remaining focused on the practical application of each technique. The study of kata from the perspective of creation enables the student to begin to understand the underlying meaning of the kata found in other styles, and allows them to interpret the techniques they use into practical situations reflected in a Kata's performance.

All kata should created with a serious (and practiced with) great effort, and all movements must be clearly understood by the students' instructor upon demonstration. The applications of technique in these kata should evolve from the experiences of the student as practiced in the Kumite and from those techniques that have proven themselves in actual self-defense situations when such have been available.

To master good kata performance, the student must develop harmony of mind and body. Some useful pointers to the student who desire to perform kata well are:

1. Be totally aware of all your movements, and position of body at all times.
2. Have good expression and be fully committed to rhythm, power, fluency of movement and body flexibility.
3. Never rush through a kata.
4. Keep calm even if you make a mistake.
5. Train kata daily, even if only for a short time.
6. Pay particular attention to the areas of the kata which are hard to perform.
7. Always start and finish a kata well, applying Zanshin.
8. Try to develop Mushin (where you don't have to stop and think about the next movement).
9. Concentrate on good Kime (focus). Remove tension often.
10. Strive to create a main purpose or application of each kata.
11. Implement Taijiquan principles as often as possible. Especially that of being relaxed.
12. Include waist vibration when striking, also called a fa'jing shake.
13. The whole body causes movement, whereas the muscles direct the strike, and are not for used power.

All kata in Shogerijutsu start with a block or evasive maneuver. Shogerijutsu is about spontaneous attack and or defense in a dynamic flowing manner. As kung fu practitioner's often say, be like water. As to exemplify the spirit of fighting without undue violence, which includes understanding the true meaning of Budo (the way to stop conflict) also known as Martial Arts. However, the primary difference between Shogerijutsu and Traditional Karate is that emphasis is not given to the counter-attack, especially the traditional punch or variation of handstrike or leg-strike. With Kata, and indeed Martial Art theory, the concept of striking as a means to defending is common. Thus, some allowances are made to the Shogerijutsu philosophy of self-defense, since this is an adaptive style which attempts to utilize any natural movement if the need ever arises. For each Kata, the student finishes facing the same direction in which they started.

Shogerijutsu takes from both internal and external methods, thus we do practice Taijiquan, and Qigong as well.

There are 10 essential points to practicing form in Taijiquan, they are:

Head: Held naturally as being supported by cotton from the centre of the crown. Tongue resting on the roof of the month.

Eyes level following the dominant limbs.

Neck: Erect, without tension.

Shoulders: Relaxed, soft and sloping.

Elbows: Always lowered and natural, never lift above the wrist.

Chest: Relaxed, never puffed out in army fashion. Do not slump shoulders and collapse the chest.

Back: Spine erect, pelvis tilted forward, relaxed.

Waist: Soft, flexible, relaxed and sunken.

Bottom: Tucked in.

Legs: Firm and solid, feet rooted, knees not locked.

The movements of Taijiquan should be initiated in the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed in the hands and fingers. All parts of the body should move in step, illustrating a balanced whole. It is the actions of the legs and waist which combine to form the basis of all Taijiquan actions. Students work toward developing their qi, thus at some point they should be able to apply both an'jing and fa'jing when necessary.

---------------------------------------------------

This page is intended for those wishing to create their own kata, and what to look for when people practice that kata, or when they demonstrate it during testing. Many of the concepts apply, and or overlap those of kung fu, and various other karate styles. Shogerijutsu strives to build on the foundations of both Neijia and Weijia concepts.

Hopefully this is helpful in some small way...

[SevenStar]

very true.

[TenTigers]

who is Master Shaefer, what style, and is there a website? This sounds facinating

[MasterKiller]

who is Master Shaefer, what style, and is there a website? This sounds facinating

Shaolin-Do.

http://www.swshaolin.com/

[Sifu Darkfist]

Forms, If you perform forms at combat speed and at full power it activates your anarobic conditioning.
So in effect, you get the type of training that you need for real fighting
Without anarobic power you are easily defeatable by a fighter that is skilled in Anarobic strength. I have seen it time and time again.

Forms are not the only way to get this power though, you could fight as well@!
However if you do 10 repeats of your favorite forms you will increase anarobic power as well as flow, and finally your understanding of the Technique you Master taught you