looking for teh soul/religion

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Spirit/soul may only be values we assign to the simple underlying force/energy that governs our physical manifestation.. I sense that "energy" is the fabric of the universe and "forces" are the patterns that shape energy into its myriad of manifestations.. Spirit/soul may simply be the name we assign to our particular individual patterns.. it seems that there is a unique dichotomy, here.. we are both individual in our awareness of self and complete in our inclusion with the whole..

The physical being has an inherent "knowing" that there is some greater aspect of itself, something beyond the simple collection of bio-chemical reactions that sustain the physical machine.. there must be some organizing force/energy, some pattern that is unique to each being, that defines "who we are".. that "knowing" is the basis of religion, it is what drives mankind to search for its origin.. to seek a reconnection with the "One" from which it came..

Now, to tie this abstract concept to the Arts, we can see the effort we go through to move our bodies in uniform flowing motions, to function as a single unit.. i sense that it is necessary to reconcile our Body, Mind, Spirit relationship before we can truly act as a being expressing itself as a single, fluid, seamless movement of Tai Chi.. Not only do the differing parts of the body need to move in fluid harmony, the mind and spirit that directs the movements must equally be aligned in a complete harmony.. In the Tai Chi symbol (yin/yang) the light and dark swirl about each other in a dynamic dance that forms the "whole".. there are three symbolic parts, light, dark and whole (body, mind and spirit).. I sense that the "spirit" is represented as the whole in the Tai Chi symbol, it is the "force or pattern" that binds or organizes the body/mind into a sentient being.. The true benefits of Tai Chi, by my experience, are only available when the three become one, neglect any single aspect and the whole becomes fragmented, losing its harmony........

Yikes, why do you guys let me go on like this.. sorry for the rambling.. Be well, all..

[woliveri]

Some quick thoughts.

If I'm reading you right you're saying we are a energy "ball" which we identify individualism during life and at death will dissipate back into the great void with all loss of whatever individualism we manifested here on earth. If I'm not correct, sorry.

I do not subscribe to this line of thought. There must be something more. As a spirit, to raise our vibrational level so the spirit is the leader of the body rather than vise versa.

Religion is a poor reflection of the original truth. It is a stagnent "thing" for lack of a better word which does more to blind the follower than enlighten them.

A rock has qi, energy but no soul.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings, Bill...

Well, no.. i sense that the individual aspect of the spirit is defined by the "pattern" of our "cohesive unit of energy", the collective memories of this unit organized as a pattern that exists as a continuum and occasionally manifested in the physical aspect of its field of possibilities.. I sense that when the physical body no longer functions, the energy that animates it maintains its memory patterns of experiences but loses some or most of its identity related to "physical matters".. the basic individual qualities of the spirit are related to virtues and intentions, kind of like a "direction" that the spirit is likely to pursue.. this basic direction is most easily defined in terms of Yin/Yang.. the spirit maintains a generally positive or negative "charge" which powers intentions and deeds, its memories of the physical existence imparts virtues or the lack thereof and together with its general "charge" shapes a "spiritual identity".. the identity that shapes the "direction" of intentions, intentions which may be adjusted according to the spirit's ability to negotiate a particular physical existence.. it seems to me that through physical existence the spirit has the oportunity to express its intentions and alter its "charge" through interaction with other manifestations of other spirits.. so, through countless manifestations (lifes/lives)) the spirit shapes itself and refines its "nature"... What we must realize is that it is necessary to have both pos/neg for a dynamic interaction to occur, that there is an inherent "balance" necessary to maintain "life"..

Regarding the rock, i am not so eager to seperate a rock from its soul simply due to my own limited perceptions.. it is too easy to see the universe from the Human perspective and discount that which we don't understand.. in the grand scheme of things, our current physical existence is quite limited and short-term.. it is our basic frame of reference.. now, the Rock, whose life-span exceeds ours by exponential proportions, may be as active and dynamic as us but, in a case of "relativity", we simply aren't around long enough to observe its activity.. similarly, the rock may see us, individually, as we see a single raindrop.. it may witness the passing of entire civilazations the way we see the passing of a rain shower.. but, this is simply speculation, a sense that ALL things are expressions of "The One", the Tao, God, etc.. and as such, are somehow connected and equal in spirit.. its all just a matter of perception....

I agree that religion is not the answer, it is mankind's atempt to assign a "personality" to that which cannot be fully understood from the physical perspective.. it is mankind's inability to accept responsibility for its own actions, preferring to have some cosmic puppeteer take ultimate responsibility.. to have a redeemer forgive him for the actions he considers to be contrary to his "nature".. Religions are merely differing cultural perspectives of simple spiritual awareness, an awareness that has been assigned values consistent with mankind's varying ability to comprehend the nature of its existence.. Most of today's religions are devoted to maintaining social order, maintaining their survivability, and perpetuating the agendas of man.. very little is done to promote spiritual development.. worse, there is a deluded effort to hold to ancient concepts even as mankind evolves spiritually.. an effort to reject what mankind is beginning to comprehend as its higher spiritual self.. for religion to survive it must be in control, the authority.. it cannot let mankind accept its birthright as free independent expressions of "the One"...

Ooops, i guess i rambled again.. sorry..
Be well...

[ZIM]

I have no problems with your view on 'how it all works', but it [most unfortunately] begs the question regarding proof/evidence.

You are saying, if I may paraphrase, that the soul is an organizing principle and that it 'assembles' the inert chemicals that make up life and provides the animation/personality/etc. for that. That assumes an a priori existence for the soul which may not exist for our scientifically-based friends.

Difficulties!

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I appreciate the desire for tangible "proof" of concepts such as "soul/spirit", yet.. i wonder why there is so little questioning of so many "scientific" concepts built on the "if/then" principle..
What one chooses to hold as "true" is really only a choice, a choice of standards and preference.. I am certain that, upon close examination, even the most constrained "scientist" would demonstrate certain beliefs that lack verifiable principles..

My assertion of my beliefs is that the soul/spirit is a cohesive unit of energy, conscious and self-aware.. this unit of energy, while independent by its self-aware nature, is still inextricably part of the whole.. The spirit/soul is not primarily an organizing principle, but the organizing principle is inherent to its function.. Okay, i will shoot myself in the foot and explain my belief on this issue..

Within the "great Void" there is only One thing ("in the beginning there was God".. Tao, Great Spirit, etc..).. that One thing, name it what you choose, has no feedback, no mirror, no "playmates".. its only thought is "I AM", but it doesn't "what it is"..so, in a great act of selflessness it divides itsef so it can experience itself, so it can know "what it is".. (the One became two..).. recognizing the value of experience, of interaction, The One (even as two aspects of the One) exploded into the unlimited aspects we know as the universe.. i think we call that "explosion" the Big Bang.. the single purpose, without judgment or constraints, is to have experiences, is to help the One know itself.. its wisdom was to retain in each aspect the inherent knowledge that it was once One thing and the subtle guiding principle is that each aspect has a "homing instinct" to return to the One, to reassemble itself and bask in the knowledge of "what it is".. that "homing instinct" is equally evident as science or religion.. the search for Origin..

Now, returning to the "purpose", the One was quite wise to offer the universe unrestricted experience potential, it knew that to only examine "favorable" experiences would not tell it who/what it really was, it would be unbalanced (hence the multitude of varying experiences/personalities).. the desire for pleasurable or favored experience while rejecting unfavorable experiences is a symptom of the "homing instinct" (organizing principle) that over the life of this current universe will bring the parts back to the Whole so it can forget and do it again (cycles of universes.. the breath of the living Tao, etc..)..

It is not necessary, for me personally, to have the scientific community validate what i "know" or believe.. no more than i need a thermometer to know that fire burns my flesh, the experience is sufficient.. as in your previous post, the "difficulties" are only for those that require measurement to validate experience.. for me, the experience is complete, the measurement is optional and merely a matter of convenience.. I can meet my scientific friends and we may sit down for coffee or a brew and one may favor one brand over another, yet.. we seem to move along without discecting such subjective experiences into statistical tables for verifiable analysis.. we simply accept our uniqueness and move on.. That science cannot "verify" the soul/spirit experience, does not invalidate it.. it simply means that for some people the standards they have chosen remain unsatisfied... (note: one can change choices and life will continue to unfold before them, unconcerned with their "choice")..

Be well..

[ZIM]

You, sir, sound like an emanationist. Which is entirely great- the One cannot help but create... perhaps the only 'thought' is I AM, but the nature of the One is creative.

... and I agree, scientists may very well have beliefs that are not verifiable- nature of the human beast, maybe.

This entire thread, by the way, reminded me of Ananda's search [from the buddhist literature] as found in the surangama sutra. I am not an expert on it by any means, but it may be of interest to some.

I've noticed that some are sitting this out currently, yet were active at the start- have any of you anything to say or add? Any means or ways of looking at the question we've not done yet?

[Christopher M]

TaiChiBob - From your account, I would suggest

1) What happened between there being one and there being two wasn't division; there is still one.

2) The process of the one, then two, and so on is on a different axis than the process of the big bang.

3) The soul/spirit isn't inherently self-aware; something has to happen to it for this to be.

[Nexus]

Christopher & TaichiBob and others,

I see that we are now witnessing the true complexity of making clarity of the concepts of soul, self, awareness, enlightenment, truth and whatsayou with our common tongue/linguistic skills. The Tao Te Ching makes note of this, in its most truly paradoxical way, in implying that even the Finest of Words cannot express the Tao itself.

I will not try to explain what that means now for the next several paragraphs.

I will say this though: I truly respect and thank each of you for your contribution and willingness to share your insights and experiences so that myself and others can learn from them. It is this sharing and community that true satisfaction in these arts is experienced for me, and for that I again thank you.

- Nexus

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

1) What happened between there being one and there being two wasn't division; there is still one.

I agree completely, it is still One.. and yet, it is individual aspects of the One, divine dichotomy..

2) The process of the one, then two, and so on is on a different axis than the process of the big bang.

Well, i sense that it is differing cultural perspectives of the same "creation event".. better viewed as an analogy..

3) The soul/spirit isn't inherently self-aware; something has to happen to it for this to be.

As a energy condenses into a cohesive unit, self-awareness is a by-product of that process.. now, what causes that event, i don't know.. i speculate that it is the One further experiencing itself, expanding its range of experiences.. but, i am equally content to remain in awe of the whole process and just focus of the unfolding experience.. Regardless of how it is manifested, its value remains in my ability to be fully present during the experience..

Thanks for the dialogue.. and, thanks to Nexus for the unprejudiced support.. <humble bows to ALL>..

Be Well..