What is wrong with Bruce Kumar Frantzis?

[scholar]

Bruce, spiritual? Right...

He has some kung fu, and seems not to care who may get hurt by it.

So, if you just want to learn to hurt people then he's your guy - for a price.

[Doug]

When I posted this thread, the intent was to find out why people here were badmouthing Mr. Frantzis and to provide detailed information to support such claims. The intent is not to get yours and get out--remark against him and that is all. The point is to be specific with reasons why.

Please keep this in mind if anyone here is going to post similar replies. It does nothing for an online forum if someone adds an insult for the sake of an insult: it gets us nowhere, and the result is more confusion.

Please back your claims with definite reasons.

Thanks,

Doug M

[scholar]

Well, my experiences with Bruce & Co. are personal. I've met and talked with him and some of his current and former students.

The stories they tell me all seem to come down to that Bruce indeed has better martial ability than your average T'ai Chi teacher and, even further, that he really gets off on hurting people for no reason. You can believe that or not, I don't care, but I'm not going to go into what I've been told any more specifically because it could possibly compromise the people who told me the specific stories.

What I can tell you is that I have met Bruce myself, and I have watched him make a petulant, ignoble ass out of himself in front of dozens of people. That I have seen for myself...

[Internal Boxer]

"And re pushing hands - receive and then issue is a pretty good strategy to me. If he was all about brute force then he wouldn't be beating anyone with any skill. Unless we're all training a useless method that falls apart under an assault of mass...."

Kaitain, mate, the point I was trying to make was that a smaller guy who advocates tendon neigong exercise, ie. hammer work, etc in relation to a much bigger guy who advocates "chi" work resulted in an interesting result. But I would consider that people of equal skills regarding Taiji listening and issueing would favour the larger guy.

Off topic ---- I suppose my beef is all the so called chi development peeps who focus on that as the development of internal power rather than neigong and body mechanics. To be honest I am pretty sick of the people who think Internal MA masters are somehow the ultimate deadlist fighters, and view pro MMA guys as a lower level of skill. I certainly view myself as MMA rather than IMA even though my forum name suggests otherwise. Having said that there are MMA eltists just as much as internal eltists who cause all the problems for everyone. But I would certainly view the MMA eltists offer a stronger argument since they will put their money where their mouth is.

[Buddy]

Syd,
Bull**** detector? What you said is some of the biggest [Minor insult removed] I've ever heard. You know all this from a couple of photos? You mean you don't even have rumor and ennuendo to back up your opinion? Kumar's neigong is quite profound and in his day he could pound most to the ground, bud. [Minor insult removed]
Buddy

[Syd]

Be nice

[backbreaker]

We're all in the same gang(neijia)

[Buddy]

Syd,
[Removed insult directed towards Buddy]Let me formally invite you to Plymouth Massachusetts to repeat your comments to my face. You have some sort of special power that allows this "subtle qualities of discernment" based on a picture?

[I want you to know I am trying to remove all the insults here to prevent locking of the thread.]

[Syd]

Nothing worth keeping here

[Buddy]

Kettle, you're black.
Syd, If you will review the posts, while I belittled your foolish idea about "knowing" someone from a photograph, I did not resort to a personal attack until you decided to. [Removed minor insult]
Buddy

[Syd]

Nothing worth keeping

[scholar]

Buddy makes a good point about how to conduct a proper argument, concentrate on the ideas, not the personalities. Which is why I've stayed out of you guys' exchange up until now. Discussing good form in arguing is way more interesting for me than talking about Bruce, at any rate!

Unfortunately "Go back to reading your books, son" is a bit insulting, and exacerbated the situation to its present remove from the realm of ideas.

You guys are on opposite sides of the world (Syd's in Australia), otherwise we'd have an interesting showdown. Erle likes to fight, Bruce likes to fight, presumably their students do, too...

Cheers guys,
S.

[Doug]

Discussing good form in arguing is way more interesting for me than talking about Bruce, at any rate!

But this is off topic and should be conducted in private messages or in another thread.

Guys, please don't degenerate this thread into a stupid argument. Its purpose is not to start arguments but to get claims and (as it turns out) opinions out so that these run-and-gun insults about Mr. Frantzis can be clarified or explained and, then, (as one can expect on a discussion board) refuted.

This thread is not a waste of time unless some people make it a waste. I am asking that the insults are reserved for private messages, not the discussion board.

Doug M

[scholar]

For an effective refutation, however, there has to be ground rules for argument that the arguers will accept. Otherwise it will degenerate (as it has in this case and many, many others) into name calling and insults, especially in a thread started by someone asking why so many people in the martial arts world seem to want to call Bruce names and insult him.

So maybe I wasn't so off-topic after all...

[Doug]

Mr. Scholar,

Please refer to the question at the beginning of the thread. I ask in no way for people to start arguments. I ask that these points be brought forth in one place so they may be clarified.

There have been many unproven, unnecessary remarks posted about Bruce Kumar Frantzis. I have not been able to find anything bad about him on the Internet except for, remarkably, right here. Here, anyone can say anything without proving it (as is the case within any environment where proof is not necessary but an opinion is always available). I posted this to, perhaps, expand upon these claims as either more likely possible or false.

Do not take my use of your post as an attack on you; it was merely a starting point to explain my point. I apologize if this is how my previous post was taken, but it was not the intent.

Doug M