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Thread: What is wrong with Bruce Kumar Frantzis?

  1. #61
    http://www.energyarts.com/hires/bagu.../fightmov.html

    I found this clip at another discussion forum. If B.K. Frantziz is considered higher level than Sam Masich or can really beat him, I would say he is very good by my standards.

  2. #62
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    Doug,

    Fair enough.

    I'll restate my contention, without the levity this time. My experiences with Bruce and his and his students' (to me) odd behavior that I have witnessed are personal, not hearsay, but there is no way that I can prove or realistically substantiate them here. I'm sure that Bruce & Co. think that I am odd, too, for all of that. So while I am convinced of the validity of my judgments regarding his level (I have some pretty profound Nei Kung, too, and am nowhere near my teachers' level to boot) I recognize that anyone else is necessarily going to take what I say as pure opinion only, with a big grain of salt. At the very least people will hopefully get an idea that they should be careful when evaluating the claims of any self-proclaimed master.

    The bottom line of my opinion on the matter is that while he definitely is far above the (admittedly rather poor) Western average in his martial abilities; he and his students don't publicly demonstrate the character that I would want in a teacher, for what that's worth. Far more people obviously find him very satisfactory than not, and good for them. I have a different agenda, a very demanding agenda to be sure. If people don't like it, they don't have to study with me, just as I don't have to study with Bruce. At this point the discussion foundered for me, so I found myself unable to comment meaningfully here until Buddy brought up his point about personalities/ideas.

    Cheers,
    S.

  3. #63
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    O.K., I understand

    S.,

    Thank you for explanation, which I find to be nicely put without being insulting (being an outsider to the Bruce Kumar Frantzis school) as well as a thorough as can be without getting mean or burley. I very much appreciate it.

    And I apologize once more for implying unintended offense. This is so easy to do on an online discussion board.

    Thanks again,

    Doug M

  4. #64
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    Thumbs down

    Man, this thread is painful. Doug, Why are your so persistant? If you were as persistant about learning martial arts you would be the supreme master of all masters by now. Wake up! This is the internet. KFQ Forums no less. What you have here is a lot of hear say or people with obvious agendas in reply. You have someone with actual experience and you have people with one quarter the time and one tenth the knowledge debating him. Nothing but stories, tall tales and sifu worshipers.

    What do you really expect to learn. Did you just post to defend Bruce? I'm sure he doesn't need you too and I'm sure he could care less what the internet opinions are. Were you really interested in learning some of his material and doubtful because of the internet accusations and second hand stories. I doubt it because it's easy enough to check it our for yourself and form your own opinions based on reality which is what adults do. Don't tell me it's a money thing becuase in California where your profile says you live, I can name at least 2 of Bruce's certified instructers who have a deep understaning of what he teaches and charge very little for instruction. So what's the point of keeping this alive. It's not evan good for a laugh anymore.
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  5. #65
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    Now, THAT is silly, Mr. Count.

    Read the original post. Look at the above post about arguments. Please take this seriously if you want to contribute to the thread even though you do not take it seriously.

    Insults do nothing for the question at hand and will not affect me in the least. Why waste your time? I am not insulting anyone, so why do you feel the need to do so? It makes you look bad.

    If you need to insult me, private message me. Thank you.

    Doug M

  6. #66
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    The point IS about internet arguments. There is no other question at hand except to further internet arguments. Obviously, even though you haven't figured out how internet search engines function, you found what you were searching for. Another internet argument. So why do you get so indignant when people have given you what you were searching for? I've already answered your questions from the original post. Just read it and don't take it so personal, the answers are there.
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  7. #67
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    At the risk of sounding facetious (well, it is just KFQ forums after all), Count seemed to be indulging in a little "sifu worship" of his own, there, didn't he?

  8. #68
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    Originally posted by scholar
    At the risk of sounding facetious (well, it is just KFQ forums after all), Count seemed to be indulging in a little "sifu worship" of his own, there, didn't he?
    Um, no, where did you get that idea? Bruce is not my teacher at all. Although, your comments and generalizations of the state of martial arts in the west seems to fit that category somewhat.
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  9. #69
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    It's not my style to be rude to people or to resort to lower order discussion, unless? Well, unless somebody jumps on me without due regard for intelligent discussion or debate. I felt I had just cause and said my part...

    Best to all Syd ... yes even Buddy.
    I am Jacks Dan Tien

    "The last sound he made was like a sparrow whistling"

  10. #70
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    It's not my style to be rude to people or to resort to lower order discussion, unless? Well, unless somebody jumps on me without due regard for intelligent discussion or debate. I felt I had just cause and said my part...

    Unless what Syd?
    You called me an invertabrate. OK maybe you don't understand what you said. That means spineless right? That is slang for coward here in the US. That's why I am am happy to invite to repeat that accusation to my face. I didn't jump on YOU. I jumped on your stupid and baseless assumption about Bruce based on a picture. I mean really. Does anyone else out on this forum think that is a logical conclusion? I don't know you from any other Ozzy so I have only what you write here to base my opinion upon. You have not offered any intelligent discussion or debate whatsoever. You have not, as I mentioned, even offered an opinion based on rumour and innuendo. I am a former student of Bruce's and not normally given to defending him. Believe me, even in his current state of health he would pound you to the ground. You have no cause and no case. I'm 46 years old Syd and do not suffer fools gladly. When you next address me, do so with the manners I assume either your parents or teachers must have taught you. And use your real name.
    Buddy
    Last edited by Buddy; 12-14-2003 at 09:30 PM.

  11. #71
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    *Yawn* Are you done?

    I didn't say I sought to challenge B.K, and I didn't state he had no skill; you seem determined to seek me out regardless of this fact. I merely stated that based on what I have read and seen of the guy and *other* determinations made by myself, I would not buy his materials or choose to train with him.

    And if your attitude to others is a representation of the man then this only furthers my opinion to the negative.

    Deal with it...
    Last edited by Syd; 12-14-2003 at 10:06 PM.
    I am Jacks Dan Tien

    "The last sound he made was like a sparrow whistling"

  12. #72
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    Regarding Bruce's "crazy" fees

    Let's see: 25 years of training under 4 teachers. The last one a true master... back and forth to Chinatown, two, three times a week ... tuition, tolls, gas, parking tickets.

    I consider what I learn to be a treasure!!!!!

    Now Bruce has gone to Japan and Taiwan and traveled all over to study with all types of people ... and he should charge what?

    Frankly, I'd be suspect if I was going to learn from him for three hours and he charged less than $300. How much treasure would he be willing to share with me, a stranger, in three hours?

    You think peope give away the good stuff so easily? I see tons of people walk through our school doors and are shown impressive things ... some come back, some don't, some even dismiss it. Those of us who stayed around, we get shown some other stuff.

    On another note: "I heard" or "I read" is equal to horse $hit.

  13. #73
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    Originally posted by count

    Um, no, where did you get that idea? Bruce is not my teacher at all. Although, your comments and generalizations of the state of martial arts in the west seems to fit that category somewhat.

    Really? I don't see how...

    I should say something here about your blanket asumption that Bruce has 10 times more experience than I do, since you don't want to call it "sifu worship." You forget, I know Bruce. I've seen his stuff. Sure, he can fight, but so can I. I'm not afraid of him (or you), at all. If he or any of his students were to attack me, verbally or physically, they'd find out why I'm not afraid of him. While I don't claim to have mastered 14 different martial arts as Bruce has claimed, I know that I've been also been to China and Taiwan many times myself, and learned technique from at least one of the arts that Bruce teaches that he has never seen. I have a few tricks up my sleeve! You may continue to believe what you like, if unilateral fantasies make you happy, but that won't change the simple truth that your assumptions about my level are still way off base.

    I wasn't criticizing Bruce's technical level, I was saying that I don't care for his personality. It is also quite clear to me that he doesn't care for mine, and I know he wouldn't mind telling other people about it if asked. Fair is fair.

    To paraphrase your own criticisms of Doug, this is just the internet, Count, and if someone pointing out that the posts you make betray obvious symptoms of just what you are criticizing others for upsets you, then maybe you should take up another hobby. It would be better for your blood pressure...
    Last edited by scholar; 12-15-2003 at 11:10 AM.

  14. #74
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    Thumbs down Your assumtions betray you.

    Originally posted by scholar
    Really? I don't see how...
    It was your comments about your sifus and your "profound" neigung skills and your critisim of the state of martial arts in other areas that smacks of sifu worship.
    I should say something here about your blanket asumption that Bruce has 10 times more experience than I do, since you don't want to call it "sifu worship."
    Actually, that comment is intended towards someone else, but if the shoe fits...
    You forget, I know Bruce. I've seen his stuff. Sure, he can fight, but so can I. I'm not afraid of him (or you), at all. If he or any of his students were to attack me, verbally or physically, they'd find out why I'm not afraid of him. While I don't claim to have mastered 14 different martial arts as Bruce has claimed, I know that I've been also been to China and Taiwan many times myself, and learned technique from at least one of the arts that Bruce teaches that he has never seen. I have a few tricks up my sleeve! You may continue to believe what you like, if unilateral fantasies make you happy, but that won't change the simple truth that your assumptions about my level are still way off base.
    I'm happy for you that you that you have such profound skills and have harvested so many fruits in your experience in training and learning martial arts. Tricks and techniques are like the fruits of a tree. Maybe tasty, but not the roots. Still, I made no assumptions about you in any of my posts.
    I wasn't criticizing Bruce's technical level, I was saying that I don't care for his personality. It is also quite clear to me that he doesn't care for mine, and I know he wouldn't mind telling other people about it if asked. Fair is fair.
    Fair is fair, you are entitled to your opinions and even entitled to stating them publically. Personally, I have no opinions of Bruce, I don't even know the man. Yet you assume I am defending my sifu. LOL! Think about it for a minute. I haven't made any comment or assumtion about Bruce or his skills except that I felt he is capable of defending himself and possibly ignores internet chatter about him.
    To paraphrase your own criticisms of Doug, this is just the internet, Count, and if someone pointing out that the posts you make betray obvious symptoms of just what you are criticizing others for upsets you, then maybe you should take up another hobby. It would be better for your blood pressure...
    Obvious? Obviously something I posted touched a sensitive spot in you. Not one of my comments was directed at you personally, although you have taken them all personally and felt the need to defend Doug as well, He does fine for himself judging from his e-mail. As for me, you don't know what my blood pressure is nor do you know what I consider hobbies. One hobby might be posting bait on internet forum to see who bites. Certainly doesn't get my blood pressure up. Hobbies are just for laughs and I got a few reading some of these posts. As for you, I'll say it again, if the shoe fits...
    Last edited by count; 12-15-2003 at 03:41 PM.
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

  15. #75
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    To Doug

    In reviewing the comments you wrote to me privately, I would like to publically state, I applaud your desire and effort to bring the level of dialog to a higher level. If I have mistaken your intentions by the tone of your original post, I appologize. I don't necessarily agree with some of what you think but I trust you are sincere in what you told me your motivations were.

    Having been a member of this forum for more than 5 years I may become cynical when the topics are personal, questioning the same controversial intructors like Kumar and Erle again and again. When you ask "what's so bad about "him"" or "his principles, you are bound to get those answers which cause the endless arguments.

    Maybe if you could speak to how the principles of neigong laid out in Mr. Frantzis book have served you and how it applies to your martial arts, it might be interesting to discuss.
    Count

    Live it or live with it.

    KABOOOM

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