Muay Thai

[Ray Pina]

From my understanding you drive off the ground the same way a sprinter drives off one of those little blocky things at the start of a sprint race.

I have no mystical gravitational or chi theories. I kind of look at the earth as the solid base which I can push off of ... sort of like kicking off the side of the pool to get away when playing Marco Polo.

For a more mystical aproach.... maybe.... uh .... think of a sling shot. The power of the stone comes from the streched out rubber band (waist?) but it needs the stable, steady, unmoving fork piece to transmit that power (leg driving off).

I know some try to pin me as a mystical MA but I drive off my back leg for one reason .... I find I hit a lot harder this way. With Ba Gua, I've learned (but haven't mastered) driving off the front leg .... no secret, just a matter of stealing the pushing angle and making it the back foot though it just happens to be upfront for that instant.

[Ray Pina]

Rented UFC 47 this weekend.

That superman punch .... that is a tricky son-of-a-*****. And I'm glad I saw it on TV for the first time. If the tai boxer I fought a few months ago pulled that out he probably would have cought me with it.

At the same time, I think there is a big lesson to be learned seeing that. If you aproach solving that problem by thinking of increasing your reaction time in seeing a kick and telling your brain to react but then telling your brain, no, it's actually an incoming punch now, so stop that instead .... you have a good chance of getting hit.

Need a shape that can handle both with only a slight change. We have wedging that can do that but right now, I know I'd over commit looking to wedge at the false knee and try to block the punch with my back hand .... but that doesn't have enough structural integrity to really stop that sort of heavy overhand on it's own.

Hhhhhmmmmmmmmmmm.

[KC Elbows]

SevenStar, you misunderstand me.

Being in zero G does not preclude you from having your feet on the ground. In fact, if you are in zero g, and have your feet on the ground, you will continue to have your feet on the ground until you do something to change that, you will not "float off" without some cause.

That being a given, if you are in zero G WITH YOUR FEET ON THE GROUND, the mechanics of your punch will be exactly the same, EXCEPT none of your movement will need to fight gravity.

In fact, the case could be made that gravity places a limit on forward momentum, and most certainly does not add to it.

Gravity adds nothing to the power, being on the ground does. That's the only reason I question calling it gravitic, because it gets the idea that you're adding the power of gravity, when in reality, you're just adding the power of your legs and waist and so forth. I suppose gravity keeps some of the movement from going straight up, but that's not a form of power generation, really.

Since, in both definitions, the ground is the important item for power, it seems like simply saying this, instead of muddling the issue by attributing one form of energy(power in the attack) to another(gravity) that actually does not add any power is a bit, well, confusing.

[Buby]

Originally posted by SevenStar
I was digging through the archives and found a book that details the various aspects of a power generation. Below is a summary of each energy:


Hi 7*,

Pretty cool finding! Some seem similar to things that our found in the KF I train.

transition: energy gained from motion relative to an opponent's position
- Would you consider this to be similar to intercepting your opp. move?

velocity: speed of the body and body weapon as it approaches its target
- Pretty self explanitory.

rotation: turning of the hip while delivering a strike
- We also have this, for us its "yul ma"(spelling?) and it's part of the six body parts(luk ging) that must act in unisen with the other five inorder to get the ging(power) out. Plain and simple, it's part of the body mechinics chain.

snap: quick forward motion of the shoulder when punching, or the sharp turning of the foot when kicking. This is not to be confused with the snapping back of kicks seen in tma.
- Would you say that the snap is of a springy nature? Do you sink your elbow? Does the snap recoil back naturally? If so, then its similar to our tarn ging. Maybe not in structure, but the idea behind it might be. Also, would this be a description of the shoulder motion or the type of power released?

torque: spinning of the hand just before impact - this energy occurs only in punching.
- I see this as wrist power, also part of luk ging (6 body powers). Aids in pushing the ging out.

triangulation: dropping the hand, foot or elbow down upon impact, driving the energy of the strike downward
- This sounds like our chum ging (sinking power), but I would have to feel it inorder to know for sure. Can you describe the effect it has on a person or bridge (limb)?

gravitation: pull of the earth, connection to it - provides all leverage for attack and defense.
- Root. Some like a floating root and some are more solid. The difference I see between a boxers root and my root is that my back heel is planted, as apposed to most boxers who plant on their toes and push off their toes.

There isn't anything mystical about real Kung Fu. All it is, is good body mechanics (no chi blast..LOL), conditioning, timing, sensitivity, strategy, and lots of hard work. Doesn't sound too different to any other fighting art, now does it!LOL


Take care,
Buby

[scotty1]

WD where'd those images come from?

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Buby

transition: energy gained from motion relative to an opponent's position
- Would you consider this to be similar to intercepting your opp. move?

yes, that would fall into the transition category.

snap: quick forward motion of the shoulder when punching, or the sharp turning of the foot when kicking. This is not to be confused with the snapping back of kicks seen in tma.
- Would you say that the snap is of a springy nature? Do you sink your elbow?[/b]

As in the way the elbow is down when you throw a vertical fist? If so, then no.

Does the snap recoil back naturally? If so, then its similar to our tarn ging. Maybe not in structure, but the idea behind it might be.

yeah, it should recoil naturally.

Also, would this be a description of the shoulder motion or the type of power released?[/b]

the motion, definitely. I think it can be used to describe the power in some instances - a jab, for example - but not all.

[/B]

[Meat Shake]

"Gravity adds nothing to the power, being on the ground does. "

But in Zero g, the force of your punch wouldnt be facilitated by being on the ground, because you would simply slide away upon hitting your target. Gravity anchors you to the ground, and gives you the ability to push off while throwing punches. Only way to do this in zero g would be to stand on a wall parallel to the ground and punch straight over your head.

[Goldenmane]

Gravity is what keeps your feet on the ground. Unless something else acts to do so (like, wearing velcro shoes) then you're not likely to be able to utilise anything like the same body mechanics for power generation in zero G.

You're not going to have the friction that allows you to drive the force forward. As soon as you push against the surface you're on, you're going to move away from it. No contact means you can't generate power that way.

And if you don't have an anchor point, you're going to have to use different mechanics anyway, because you're not going to be able to develop power from, say, the waist in any really efficient manner. If you twist at the waist, your top half will twist one way and your bottom half will twist the other... basic action/reaction effect.

Plus, of course, you'll end up spinning in some rather odd ways, or so I would expect.

[Buby]

"the motion, definitely. I think it can be used to describe the power in some instances - a jab, for example - but not all."

Ahhh, thanks.


Take care,

Buby

[KC Elbows]

If, in zero g, you move toward your opponent, you would move toward them without loss of power from friction. If you are touching the ground, and move in a way that drives you toward your opponent, you will move toward your opponent.

My point isn't so much that the zero g situation is exactly the same, or that the techniques could be done the same way, but that gravity adds no power whatsoever, it influences how a move is done, but unless someone can explain to me how it ADDS power directly(keeping your feet to the ground is not direct, again, all the power comes from YOU, not gravity), why would you call your power GENERATION gravitic, when it's clearly kinetic?

From Goldenmane:

"Gravity is what keeps your feet on the ground. Unless something else acts to do so (like, wearing velcro shoes) then you're not likely to be able to utilise anything like the same body mechanics for power generation in zero G."

So, with velcro shoes(or magnetic, whatever), it's pretty much the same? So gravity isn't generating the power, if it's the same with or without gravity, right?

Oxygen is also present when you punch on Earth, and you use it, does that make the same power that's gravitic oxygenetic, with much power added by oxygen? Without shoes, a shuffle could tear up your feet on concrete, does that make the power generation Reebokenetic, power production by Reeboks?

I just think this term is pretty much fallacious, I guess. Everyone is talking about using a fixed surface for leverage and power, power being produced in entirety by the body, correct? And no one is talking about gravity being converted directly to power, right?

I assume this is a pretty new term for this, so I just don't see even traditional reasons to stick with another near meaningless definition or loosely defined term.

What I'm saying is, if you throw a guy, then you're using gravitic power generation, but if you punch a guy, not really.

Now pardon me, I must drill my cosmic power generation, which is superior to even gamma power generation, the so-called green chi.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Water Dragon
You mean like this?

Cool. What are those from?

[Goldenmane]

Fair points, KC. Not being a Muay Thai guy, I can't comment in defense or support of the idea of "gravitic energy" or whatever the term was. I'm not entirely sure what is being meant by the term.

I just allowed myself to get sucked in to the discussion because it was about fighting in zero-G... although technically speaking, the term zero-G is wildly incorrect, or at least impossible. Freefall, though....

Ah, well, that's what studying physics at university does to ya... gives you a life-long tendency to babble on about these sorts of things.

[KC Elbows]

Yes, and this is babble.

Meat Shake,

First, an uppercut would work just fine. Keep in mind that you wouldn't just fly up and then the target would absorb your motion without harm, they would suddenly absorb kinetic energy to an area you chose, which would hurt, because that is what hitting does.

Second, friction does not cease to exist in(so-called, as goldenmane points out) zero g. You wouldn't hit, then slide, any more than you would in gravity, because sliding is against friction more than gravity, which doesn't change the fact that if you were attached by magnetic/velcro shoes(yes, the old virtues of magnetic and velcro footwork discussion, these martial arts forums are soooo cyclical), you would pretty much attack as normal, ecxept apparently, then your attacks would either be based on magnetic power generation, or Velcric power generation, even though all your power would still be coming from you.

If you were in a zero g movie theatre, you would need to display butterific power generation in place of gravitic. This means that you would need to find a patch of floor/wall where excess movie theatre butter has floated against the surface to provide a sticky section for your zero g kung fu theatre. Functionally, in this scenario, this butter acts in exactly the same way as gravity.

This is the only hypothetical where butter=gravity, a theory that falls apart on realizing that I Can't Believe It's Not Butter also= gravity, suggesting that it is not butter, but toast, popcorn, and potatoes, that create gravity.

Do the thai people eat potatoes?

[Meat Shake]

Kon MuayThai
Cherng muaythai
Mae Mai MuayThai
Look Mai Muay Thai

^Are these all substyles of muay thai?
Just curious, Im digging around muaythai.com.

[David Jamieson]

There is only ONE Karate!

Hiiiiiii Yaaaaaahhhhh.

wax on