OT - George Bush, more reasons to hate him

[Vash]

There is a difference between the United States Federal Government and the American People. Well, there used to be. No, there used to be the idea of one being superior to the other, that is, the People over the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial branches.

Didn't work out, though.

Of those that vote, most are ill-informed. Of those that don't, they are the ones who seem to care most about America

Never been said before, huh?

To make a point:

Bush is a worthless human being, as is the majority of the government. And the People. And the World.

Nothing good anywhere, really. Not where there's more than three people.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by Serpent
Of course, the fundamental flaw with that reasoning, Chris, is that most Americans seem to be brainwashed...

So far as that's true, I'm not sure how it's a flaw in my reasoning. Is the cure for brainwashing more brainwashing? Or is the cure for brainwashing the demonstration on just how empty the content of that brainwashing is by showing people what real discussion looks like? I guess I'm not an absolute pessimist about the human race yet, because I still believe it's the latter.

they're convinced that they are the greatest and Bush is the man.

Is that true? I keep hearing that Bush's popularity is at the lowest of any president, and how there has never been an [American] protest movement as large or as vocal as the anti-Bush one. I will freely admit I haven't researched those claims to see if they are true; are you suggesting they're not - that it's quite the contrary?

[Daredevil]

George Dubbya's Imperialism isn't anything new to those of in the Old World. We've seen our share of dictators and megalomaniacs so we know one when we see one. ****, we're stuck with the Italians in the same Union. =)

And, guys, we're seeing one.

I hope -- and actually trust -- the American people will make the right choice for the world as a whole when it comes the time to vote (though I'm sure being the new Rome appeals to a lot of you -- I can't blame you -- but America can be so much more than a pale imitation of an old tyranny).

[Bluesman]

I doubt if that makes you an expert.
It is my belief that President Bush is a good man and will again have my vote.
The french, and to a lesser extent the germans, should stop hindering the UN from going in and helping to stabalize the country of Iraq. If not , it going to come and bite us all in the @ss.
They are doing just what the terroists want them to do.

[T'ai Ji Monkey]

Actually the U.N. COULD do a decent job if the USA would stop abusing their veto right.


Personally, I would get rid of the veto rights for EVERYBODY anyway, only that way could be have a proper consensus.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Bluesman
I doubt if that makes you an expert.
It is my belief that President Bush is a good man and will again have my vote.
The french, and to a lesser extent the germans, should stop hindering the UN from going in and helping to stabalize the country of Iraq. If not , it going to come and bite us all in the @ss.
They are doing just what the terroists want them to do.

Don't take this as US bashing, but I find it amusing that the USA, Britain & Australia (and other members of the coalition of the willing) were happy to circumvent the UN to attack Iraq, but now they want to UN to assist in cleaning up the resulting mess? Kinda wanting both ways isn't it?

[old jong]

Wake me up if they find mass destruction weapons...Remember?...ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[shaolin kungfu]

HEY OJ!! WAKE UP!!!!!!!! THEY FOUND SOMETHING!!!!!!!!!












































































oh, nevermind, it was just a shoe.

[Vash]

We also found Weapons of Minimal Distraction. I think there were some rocks, and some slings, and stuff like that.

Maybe an empty shell casing. Or something hot and shiny.

[Serpent]

Originally posted by Christopher M
Is that true? I keep hearing that Bush's popularity is at the lowest of any president, and how there has never been an [American] protest movement as large or as vocal as the anti-Bush one. I will freely admit I haven't researched those claims to see if they are true; are you suggesting they're not - that it's quite the contrary?

You tell me. I'd love to think that the American people were against Bush in a huge way. Why not recall him now like the Californians did to Gray Davis? Don't Americans love to shout about how they are allowed to bear arms in order to prevent their government from becoming a tyranny?

Look around yourselves, people. And look beyond your own borders, 'cos that affects you too. Remember 9/11.

Of course, if you wait till 2004 and then oust Bush with a vote then fair enough. But just think what he could do with another year in power. That's at least one more war! Not to mention that the vote of the people doesn't seem to matter to him anyway, judging by the last election.

[Bluesman]

http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...c04.poll.bush/
http://washingtontimes.com/national/...5025-1820r.htm
http://www.msnbc.com/news/980026.asp?0cv=CB10
Posted by JoeDoe:
Don't take this as US bashing, but I find it amusing that the USA, Britain & Australia (and other members of the coalition of the willing) were happy to circumvent the UN to attack Iraq, but now they want to UN to assist in cleaning up the resulting mess? Kinda wanting both ways isn't it?

No, it is not. They were asked to take action then and it didn't and are asked to take action now and are not.
The USA as well as the other nations were wanting the UN to abide by it's resultions concerning Iraqi failue to co-operate . Had the UN threated to go in and force Iraq to comply with the UN resultions instead of france going behind the UN's back and telling Iraq that the USA would not attack , maybe the bloodshed would not have occured. No one knows what may have developed but france is no friend of the USA.
Anyone Recall that france also would not allow the USA to fly over its airspace to attack Qdaffi? The F-111 still did their job quite well but put their lives at risk due to the extreme duration of flight.

__________________

[Daredevil]

Originally posted by joedoe


Don't take this as US bashing, but I find it amusing that the USA, Britain & Australia (and other members of the coalition of the willing) were happy to circumvent the UN to attack Iraq, but now they want to UN to assist in cleaning up the resulting mess? Kinda wanting both ways isn't it?

Yeah, that's the thing that bugs me, personally.

Of course, it's not an easy situation. In some ways, it's our responsibility (as fellow humans and ones living in relative luxury) to help there. In some ways I like to think "the Americans started it, let them finish it", but the thought of American soldiers dying there to keep a tenous order doesn't appeal to me either.

Of course, the American argument seems to be that the UN should've been there in the first place, helping clean up the Saddam mess.

It's really a hard question and boils down to how each of us perceives our right to meddle in other countries' business. I believe a lot of the responsibility lies in the hands of citizens of those nations, even those under dictatorships. Many countries have thrown away those shackles without a devastating war from the outside. Besides, it's easy to sit here afar from their situation and claim to know what's wrong and what's right for them.

So, I feel the US has put the rest of the world in a very ****ty place by going to war against the consensus. Now the rest of us are morally obligated to help with the Iraq situation, but are by these very same good intentions being drawn into a situation we initially wished to avoid. That's ****ed up.

If it's global leaders the US government wants to become, they sure aren't acting very responsibly.

I hope folks don't take my points as too bashing of Americans, because that really isn't my point. I recognize the States as a true remaining global superpower and -- at the risk of sounding trite -- with that power comes certain responsibility.

[joedoe]

Originally posted by Bluesman
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/...c04.poll.bush/
http://washingtontimes.com/national/...5025-1820r.htm
http://www.msnbc.com/news/980026.asp?0cv=CB10
Posted by JoeDoe:
Don't take this as US bashing, but I find it amusing that the USA, Britain & Australia (and other members of the coalition of the willing) were happy to circumvent the UN to attack Iraq, but now they want to UN to assist in cleaning up the resulting mess? Kinda wanting both ways isn't it?

No, it is not. They were asked to take action then and it didn't and are asked to take action now and are not.
The USA as well as the other nations were wanting the UN to abide by it's resultions concerning Iraqi failue to co-operate . Had the UN threated to go in and force Iraq to comply with the UN resultions instead of france going behind the UN's back and telling Iraq that the USA would not attack , maybe the bloodshed would not have occured. No one knows what may have developed but france is no friend of the USA.
Anyone Recall that france also would not allow the USA to fly over its airspace to attack Qdaffi? The F-111 still did their job quite well but put their lives at risk due to the extreme duration of flight.

__________________

I guess my POV is that if you decide to act without the consensus of the 'body', then should you expect support from the 'body' when you have completed those actions?

If I say to you "Hey, I think I will go knock down that wall over there" and you tell me that it might not be a good idea, but I go and do it anyway, do I then have the right to ask you to help me fix up the mess? I know that is oversimplification, but it does seem to me that action was taken without agreement of the UN, and now the UN is being asked to help clean up afterwards.

[Serpent]

So it was you that f@#$ed up my wall!?

Frankly, the US has created a whole new Vietnam in Iraq and they're desperately trying to get the rest of the world to dig them out. The US stated that the UN had become redundant, that it was a toothless tiger, etc. yet now it wants UN help? Too bad. Your bed, you lie in it.

[Serpent]

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush's approval rating -- which had declined in recent weeks -- moved back up, primarily due to big gains among men and among high-income Americans, according to a new CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll.