Why is it that many black belts have no skill?

[totallyfrozen]

You know, one thing that I like about the way western boxing does it is that there is only ONE belt to earn...the championship. And you can lose it if another warrior comes along later and defeats you. There are no kata forms..just sparring. You only know how much you've learned by fighting..period. However, boxing is just a sport...but I do like they way it uses the belt system. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

Personally, I hate belts. I feel that they deceive others about what I know and I feel that they have the potential to deceive me also. When I started taking Brazilian JuJitsu, I asked my teacher if I could just keep wearing a white belt no matter what level I attained. He liked the idea alot and himself wore a white belt during our private lessons.
I think most places want you to wear your colored belt if you have one.
I hate colored belts...I'm not there to earn a belt, I'm not there to find religion, I'm there to learn how to fight, pure and simple.
That's my take on it.
Thanks for your time.

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by totallyfrozen:
You know, one thing that I like about the way western boxing does it is that there is only ONE belt to earn...the championship. [/quote]

Actually there are four championship belts in each division. That's why we have unification fights.

[jimmy23]

I have earned two black belts in my life.I have since lost the belts themselves and the certificates.So what?I either learned or didnt,the belts were useless.I still train and I still consider myself a beginner.

[totallyfrozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Highlander:
Actually there are four championship belts in each division. That's why we have unification fights.[/quote]
Well, ok...you're right.
I guess what I was trying to say is that ther is really one "type" of belt. You win or you don't win.
There isn't a "white belt" boxer and an "orange belt" boxer..etc.
But I see your point.

[Hung Wai]

From my experience, I've noticed alot of martial artists think of a black belt as a destination. They achieve the rank and so the ego swells and the training slackens. The best martial artist I am aware of is an 80 year old Tai Chi master. My sifu goes to see him. He says he reads Tai Chi classics and tries to decipher the poems to learn more "secrets" of Tai Chi. Someone asked him once why bother since he is already a master. The old man replied, " I may have been given the title master, but I will always be a student of Tai Chi." I think that alot of modern day martial artists lack this humility and that is one reason why we have such weak black belts.

Talent is god given,
be thankful.
Fame is man given,
be humble.
Conceit is self given,
be careful.

[bigbear]

I have to agree, my Sifu has trained for 15 years in Yau Kung Mun. for almost 1 year learning a form, it's applications and perfecting it. Obviously once the basics were performed correctly and techniques understood it became easier. but the fact is it took him 15 yrs to master the system and he is still learning. we go through the same process including practicing stances and staying in horse stance for 45mins-1 hr. My sifu prefers that we get it right rather than progressing quickly. I once went to a school and they have training weekends and if students pay for the weekend they could go up to 3 levels. I mean how rediculous that they could achieve three levels in 2 days. What do they master, three punches and three kicks to each level???
when i asked how they could achieve that, the reply i was given was that they trained hard for the two days.
And their sparring was like monkeys dancing around, i mean my 5 year old nephew could punch and kick better than them.
So, achieving real ablilities in the arts is a life long practice. i mean if the students are that bad what would the instructors be like. what a joke!!!.

[Atomicshaolin]

Belts are a western idea to feed your ego.
Most of these blackbelts have little skill because their "masters" have no skill. The only way to end this is to kick their ass.Humiliate them so they won't have any students left. Stand up for your art and the future of it. Have you heard the saying only the strong will survive. It's human nature. If you don't try your skill how do you know if it works. To see it is nothing, You have to feel it.

[fat momma]

exsamples of black belts/sashes.

fat momma

[inyo]

Belt means nothing,it's an illusion.A persons true ability comes to the fore when faced with a life or death situation. Life or death, thats what we train for,and the cultivation of a strong mind and spirit.And the strength to decide in the moment how we will meet our fate. Life or death,everthing else is just window dressing.--You don't have to win,there is always someone better,but you must always stand up.--oossuu!!! :mad: :mad: :D :)

[Budokan]

I've always thought that a student should be given only one belt in his lifetime--white. Anything else is self-indulgence.

And this coming from someone who wears one of those "colored" belts....

Ah well, nobody's perfect. But I still think you should wear only one belt for the tenure of your stay in a particular style.

Does anybody actually do this any more?

K. Mark Hoover

[Chen Wuan]

In the school that I work out in most of them can not fight! Infact the students are all afraid of me and wont work out with me. We as Martial Artist are a product of our wills and training. Most practitioners lack the will to train for results. A Sifu I once had could fight and expected his students to learn to. His moto was "you have to train extreme to get extreme results". Most instructors don't place this expectation on their students and become belt factories. This gives the students a falce scence of secutiry. And this will get the student in to trouble.

I feel that the fault is in the teacher not the student. If they don't place quality expectations on the students they will get lower qulaity martial artists. ;)

[aw.axis]

I guess my thoughts on the matter are: yes, some guys feel the need to live up to other peoples expectations and thus gain a black sash/belt, others want a symbol of achievement.

I gained my black sash just over a year ago and I was so pleased to get it, not because I thought **** Im officially hard now, but because I was happy that I thought: I have learned stuff I wanted to know and am now ok to use the stuff effectively. Before I learned martial arts I worked in security and I believe that the MA stuff now makes me calmer, more laid back etc. which has made me respond better in threatening situations.

I guess a black sash souldn't be a symbol of how hard you are, more a symbol of the fact that you are trained and content with you knowledge and application of what you have learned. The down side is that there is always more stuff to be learned and sometimes its your ego as well as your body that gets dented.

All the best to you all.

[remo]

Budokan,

Interesting you should mention the one belt approach, in that it reminds me of the story I have always been told about the infamous “black belt”.

As the story goes, the new martial arts students were given one belt as they began their training, white. As they continued through the years, the uniforms would be used, torn and eventually replaced, but the same belt was continued to be used. With time and use this belt began to get dirty and took on a dark color.

When westerners came upon the martial arts schools and were showing interest in learning this fighting system, they couldn’t help but notice that the students with the “black belts” were much better than those that had the white belts.

Of course they didn’t stick around long enough to realize that indeed the belts eventually became quite faded with time, and as such, the older and most experienced martial artists ended up with a belt that appeared to be the color from which they started, white.

Full circle if you will.

I don’t know of the origin of the story, or if it’s even true; but, I like it. :D

"We forge our bodies in
the fire of our will." Han
from 'Enter the Dragon'

[MonkeySlap Too]

A funny story....
For the past decade I never gave out belts (the one exception being the students following the strict ACSCA curriculum) and my students loved this. Everybody knew what everybody else had. Skill was the attainment and it was visible on the training floor.

Well, after about a decade I tell one of my students to try teaching. He says 'I don't know anything. I don't even have a black belt.' I get ****ed and tell him to go do it. Mind you, this is a guy that can take down walls with his punches, and has extremly brief challenge matches. He is very accomplished. So he goes and teaches. He finally calls me and says "You know, you really taught me a lot. I was surprised. I meet all these people with advanced black belts and I really feel I am one up on them."

I still haven't given him a black belt. It just doesn't seem to suit his style.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[Mycin]

Here's my $.02 worth...

I don't think the problem is with the belt system, per se. The problem is in how people perceive it. I agree with Robin that a black belt ranking is only the beginning of truly learning an art. Too many people think of it as an end to itself.

My style happens to use belts. I don't think this makes it either better or worse than other styles that don't. The belt rankings are used to group the techniques into distinct sets that build on one another. Each ranking requires you to learn and demonstrate a set of techniques, kicks, throws, forms, etc., plus show some ability to spar. Looking at the rank another student has achieved gives you some idea of how far they have progressed in learning the various techniques. It says very little about how well they can fight.

Personally, I find the belt rankings to be a motivator. I set myself goals of, say, earning the next ranking within two months. This helps me remain focused and keep up the training tempo. However, I fully understand that just learning and demonstrating techniques and forms does not make me a better fighter. These are just basic tools and the rankings just indicate I've learned a certain set of these tools. Being able to use the tools effectively when the chips are down is a whole other issue that can't be measured by a piece of cloth.

If someone is looking at a black belt and assuming it means its owner is a badass, that just shows how ignorant the observer is. It doesn't mean the belt system is bad. A belt system is only as good or bad as the use to which it is put, like anything else in life.

Mycin