robert w smith vs chen man ching fight

[bamboo_ leaf]

Masters how dose one become an acknowledged master? Masters seek out others to train with and deepen their own understandings, whom do you think they seek. Not all are famous nor want to be. The unknown guy playing taiji in the park may be a master, ya never know.

People that I have met who others called masters, where very willing to let you feel their arts. I wouldn’t confuse entering some MMA contest as proof of anything other then being good in that environment.

Prove their own claims? What masters make claims that are unproven ?

Anyone can be beat, including masters their human too, they may exemplify a standard, or high degree of skill. Those seeking this skill will seek them out as those wanting to test the skill and see if it is indeed real.

In some cases it may not be real, for the person testing but real for all others. As CMC is quoted as saying something about Long kin Jin / empty force/ only being able to be used on students of the teacher. I think his assessment of this is misunderstood by many but it is an example of something that may work on some and not on others.

[Unmatchable]

People that I have met who others called masters, where very willing to let you feel their arts. I wouldn’t confuse entering some MMA contest as proof of anything other then being good in that environment.

If we are talking about learning tai chi for healing than for fighting than that's a totally different matter. But alot of people are trying to learn it to learn how to fight and alot of these masters are cheating them and being delusional. They are giving people false hope and people could end up in the hospital because of this. MMA is a place that seperates the bull**** of martial arts from the stuff that works. If you have no intentions of fighting MMA fine, me neither, just stop spouting it. However, i believe when someone would want to make a competition fighting system out of TC it would be possible. just add heavy conditioning, full contact sparring with gloves and groundwork and you would be able to produce great sport fighters. the result would then probably look more like sport MT than like "regular" TC.

There WAS a death in the NHB scene, in the Ukraine a few years ago. They guy died due to excessive stikes to the head while mounted by his opponent, the ref, did NOT to a good job.
There are NO strikes that are TOO dangerous for the NHB scene, nor are there any holds that are TOO dangerous. There are just effective and less effective techniques.
NHB rules ALLOW neck shots, temple shots, you are ALLOWED to open hand strike, you can punch to the eyes, you can apply pressure to the neck ( front and sides), you can dislocate/ break, arms, ankles, etc.
What techniques to you think are TOO dangerous for NHB competitions ?

[bamboo_ leaf]

a gun for for one.

its what people fight with these days, try reading the paper sometime.

Not to argue the point, people die in boxing too, boxing is not MMA.

Neither are fighting. If you don’t feel that what you do meets your needs then don’t do it. If you want to check weather something is good or not test it. Pretty simple isn't it.

If you want to learn about taiji then find someone who meets your expectations and train with them. dont come to the net expecting answers to questions that only you can answer.

[backbreaker]

At the last Pride I saw Royce was saying the outcome of his match with Yoshida was also B.S.

[Unmatchable]

Actually someone did die in a nhb match in Russia, I already mentioned this. But it is the referee's job of making shure it doesn't happen. Only a small percentage of people use guns, mostly criminals (normal people don't wlak around carrying guns on them). Plus it takes special mentality to shoot someone and take someones life, average person doesn't have that kind of will to take a life so easily.

[Vapour]

People dies in judo or wrestling or boxing match occasionally. NHB isn't as dangerous as it claim to be. If it is it will be banned. Plus the name is moronic. If it is real no hold bar, people will die or maimed in every contests and contestant and promoters will go to jail. If you don't do this to me I don't do this to you type of etiquette is essential if you want to perticipate in NHB.

Why not call it as what it is. Mixed Martial Arts contest.

[Brad]

Advertising Everything is Karate to the general public, so Mixed Martial Arts doesn't have the same effect as No Holds Barred Boxing can be more dangerous than mixed martial arts... the big gloves allow you to absorb more punishment without being knocked out, and the damage isn't allways apparent. Plus unlike NHB, in boxing there's no option to take someone out without hurting them. Submissions are much more forgiving to the body than consistant head shots. It's silly that boxing is accepted as a sport by many of the same places that try to ban NHB type events. Guess it's all about the money.

[Unmatchable]

Actually the opposite is true in mma there is not need to take someone out without hurting them, because bjj is the fundemental art behind mma that every athlete trains in and bjj takes someone out by either putting a lock on them or a choke hold until they give up instead of senslessly beating on them. That is why there were so few deaths or people getting hurt in nhb rather than boxing. Boxers stepped up to mma competitions and bjj won (without hurting them). Mma training is alot harder than boxing because you have to have a good all around game and be an all around fighter instead of just specialising in punching like boxers, you have to knoow how to fight on the ground, standup grappling, thros, kicks, punches, etc. It is alot closer to a streetfight than a boxing match.

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by bamboo_ leaf
a gun for for one.

its what people fight with these days, try reading the paper sometime.

Not to argue the point, people die in boxing too, boxing is not MMA.

Neither are fighting. If you don’t feel that what you do meets your needs then don’t do it. If you want to check weather something is good or not test it. Pretty simple isn't it.

If you want to learn about taiji then find someone who meets your expectations and train with them. dont come to the net expecting answers to questions that only you can answer.

Ay I second this......

For the love of god, it’s the same old argument. The belief that UFC, shoot fighters are the only legit, real martial art masters and everyone else it just pretending because they are not testing there skills in a real environment is so done it’s burnt to a crisp!

As the post said……”People fight with guns now days”………

It was Colt that created man equal…. not God…remember?

I guess people don't think Frank Shamrock could get smoked (easily, I might add) by some 16-year-old punk with a 22 cal hammerless revolver

If you practicing a hand to hand martial art, you are out of date by at least 300 years. So Why do it? I do it cause its fun…And my felling is unless you train to be in a gunfight, best be quite with the macho chin music!!!

And as far as I know the most dangerous man on the planet lives in Texas. He’s in his late forties; about 5,9 weighs about 200 pounds and is fat and dumpy looking. He is in the Guinness Book of World recorded as having the fastest draw with a pistol. I saw on a TV special, him shooting two holes in a silver dollar thrown into the air at 20 paces. With one very very single fast draw, if you blinked (literally) you missed it! He got two shots off in one action. Go ahead make that man mad! Go ahead threaten his wife! Heck, go get a gun I bet you would still loose. The man is liquid speed and precision.



You could put the last four UFC champions in a room with that man, give him his gun and odds are he would be the last man standing. Imagine that…….A fat little dumpy man "the last standing."

Kind of make the whole UFC arguement moot doesn't it?

[Unmatchable]

Sorry I read your post wrong. You said "there is no way in boxing to take someone out without hurting them." But anyway I am not pro mma or pro tma or ima, I just hate fanatics. Whether it's coming from which side. If you read my previous posts I was defending Tai chi and other styles from mma, and bjj drones like MarryPrakster, Archangel, knifefighter, etc.

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by GroungJing


Ay I second this......

For the love of god, it’s the same old argument. The belief that UFC, shoot fighters are the only legit, real martial art masters and everyone else it just pretending because they are not testing there skills in a real environment is so done it’s burnt to a crisp!

As the post said……”People fight with guns now days”………

It was Colt that created man equal…. not God…remember?

I guess people don't think Frank Shamrock could get smoked (easily, I might add) by some 16-year-old punk with a 22 cal hammerless revolver

If you practicing a hand to hand martial art, you are out of date by at least 300 years. So Why do it? I do it cause its fun…And my felling is unless you train to be in a gunfight, best be quite with the macho chin music!!!

And as far as I know the most dangerous man on the planet lives in Texas. He’s in his late forties; about 5,9 weighs about 200 pounds and is fat and dumpy looking. He is in the Guinness Book of World recorded as having the fastest draw with a pistol. I saw on a TV special, him shooting two holes in a silver dollar thrown into the air at 20 paces. With one very very single fast draw, if you blinked (literally) you missed it! He got two shots off in one action. Go ahead make that man mad! Go ahead threaten his wife! Heck, go get a gun I bet you would still loose. The man is liquid speed and precision.



You could put the last four UFC champions in a room with that man, give him his gun and odds are he would be the last man standing. Imagine that…….A fat little dumpy man "the last standing."

Kind of make the whole UFC arguement moot doesn't it?

So what's your point that we shouldn't be training because some people use guns? That's bs. If you want to learn how to fight whether it is for bouncing, whether you live in a bad neighboorhood, or whether you want to defend your wife from being raped martial arts will always be useful. If your learning tai chi for health than all the power to you, but don't lie to yourself and your students that your learning how to fight. If you want to learn how to fight advise them to go to their local mma down the street.

[BAI HE]

There are plenty of TCMA men who compete:

go to
www.blacktaoist.com, he fights San Shou

www.shenwu.com
They fight MMA and BJJ

Mike Patterson's Xingyi guys at
www.xingyi.com

Look through the fighter profiles in the SanShou world championships, I believe two of the guys train Xingyi.

TaiJi?

Look no further than William CC Chen's son Max.
Numerous San Shou victories and even more impressively, a few Golden Gloves tourney wins.

Not sure where this thread is going, but San Shou is an extension of CMA and qualifies as MMA.
To say TCMA stylists can't or won't fight is rather ridiculous.
Do you think an MMA gym and it's cooperative practices will get you any more fight ready than a hardore traditional school with a full cirriculum?

I think not. Some high level grapplers have proven some things. What have you? You may grapple, are you as good as a Gracie?
I'll take a guy who trains TKD for 5 hrs a day over a mouth boxer who talks crap and struts around like he's walked his talk.

So Unmatchable, why make blanket statements.
If you think TaiJi doesn't work MMA pm "Shooter"? Please test it or do your homework before you start putting others and their training methods down.

Merry Christmas.
Bai.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

As someone else said, i don't train to go fight in NHB tourneys.. my ego is already too healthy, why add more.. i do train to be functionally capable in a situation, though.. and, IMA's will accomplish that given the right teacher.. Interestingly, it is my perception that the Taiji player is non-confrontational.. would look for a peaceful resolution to possible violent situations.. the Taiji adept would appear harmless until precisely the right moment to take advantage of surprise.. Training isn't looking for a winner, it's looking for a learner.. we train to learn and even a loss has lessons..

Matches designed to determine the "best" are also putting the players in unnecessary danger.. you never know what your opponent's intentions are, they may willing to maime you in order to win a match (possibly appropriate for the street, but not for fellow students).. I train for that unlikely situation when i might actually have to use force to change the outcome of a situation, i do not conduct my life as though that situation lurks at each corner (that's just paranoia, not to mention a poor quality of life).. I train regularly and intensely to meet such challenges but i conduct my life so as to avoid unnecessary ventures into those situations.. The best fight is the one you were capable enough to avoid.. Oh, and make no mistake, Taiji is quite effective in any arena, only too few people understand its full capabilities which are not limited to physical confrontation.. it is equally rewarding to control a situation through TaiJi skills applied to communication and reasoning.. The true loss, is the belief that physical force is the determining factor in a confrontation..

The most dangerous man on the planet? One of many that are willing to unleash unspeakable terrors on innocent people in the name of their righteous beliefs.. Not some well trained martial artist or gunslinger, that is just the voice of well-fed egos.. even the gunslinger is prey to a good sniper, and the sniper prey to another and so on...

As for Masters.. My teacher often said, there's a little old guy somewhere, probably mending his fishing nets.. that could walk through a gathering of "Masters" without them even noticing that he could defeat any one or the group.. he is the Master..

Be well...

[Unmatchable]

Bamboo_Leaf It's called facts, try finding them sometime.

Texas 78,360 16,585 17,313 28,926
15,536

As a random entry. that's the state, number of assaults, numb of assauits by firearm, by knife/edge, by other, and by personal weapons.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/html/...2-table22.html

[Unmatchable]

Originally posted by BAI HE
There are plenty of TCMA men who compete:

go to
www.blacktaoist.com, he fights San Shou

www.shenwu.com
They fight MMA and BJJ

Mike Patterson's Xingyi guys at
www.xingyi.com

Look through the fighter profiles in the SanShou world championships, I believe two of the guys train Xingyi.

TaiJi?

Look no further than William CC Chen's son Max.
Numerous San Shou victories and even more impressively, a few Golden Gloves tourney wins.

Not sure where this thread is going, but San Shou is an extension of CMA and qualifies as MMA.
To say TCMA stylists can't or won't fight is rather ridiculous.
Do you think an MMA gym and it's cooperative practices will get you any more fight ready than a hardore traditional school with a full cirriculum?

I think not. Some high level grapplers have proven some things. What have you? You may grapple, are you as good as a Gracie?
I'll take a guy who trains TKD for 5 hrs a day over a mouth boxer who talks crap and struts around like he's walked his talk.

So Unmatchable, why make blanket statements.
If you think TaiJi doesn't work MMA pm "Shooter"? Please test it or do your homework before you start putting others and their training methods down.

Merry Christmas.
Bai.

Tim Cartmell does not fight in official mma nor his students they have a small group sparring competition, usually against each other or biggeners.

Mike Patterson fights in Keoshun (sp?) against other kung fu guys.

San Shou is not mma and it's level of competition is far below Muay Thai yet hardly any CIMA(you mentioned very few examples which anyone can refute) had much success in them. And Black TAoist doesn't list his official record but I'm guessing it's not too great and from the clips I saw it showed not internal principles but mostly brawling (a shenwu student wrote the same thing describing the shenwu tourney).

William CC Chen's son was trained in kixkboxing San Shou (he learned some tai chi but he claimed san shou was the training he used to train for fights and fight).

Shooter fought in some small level (and low level competition) in Canada (lol) using kickboxing and wrestling, shure he might have busted out a cool tai chi move here and there but he was doing kickboxing like every other guy. Ask a guy on this forum called EmptyCup (he's a wing chun guy who trains in mma now) how succesful CMA are in competitions.