Wing Chun/Herniated Disc

[Ace]

Hello All,

I've posted a similar topic on the Taijiquan/Internal Arts board but I'm duplicating it here on the advice of a friend of mine who told me to check Wing Chun out.

I have had a herniated disc on L5 (lower lumbar) for several years. I have been able to do pretty much anything I needed or wanted to do without much limitation other than extreme twisting from the waist or bending backwards. Lately though, I have been experiencing some twinges in my lower back. Both a chiroprator & medical doctor agree that it is not really getting any worse, but that I need to be careful with my activities.

I need to focus on art that I can use from a self-defense/combat perspective & that I can practice with minimal problems associated with the disc. A friend of mine recommended I look into Wing Chun as he has an acquaitance with a problem similar to mine who decided on Wing Chun due to it's structure & linear movements.

I'd appreciate any feedback or comments from anyone on this. Thanks.

[curtis]

Hello
Where are you at?
There are many good schools of thought,on this topic.

I would first look to see whats in you local eara,then find out more about the art, school,or sifu. before you start asking to many questions.

Always do your homework before starting you termpaper. ;-)

Have a good DAY.
sincerely. C.A.G.

[John Weiland]

Hi Ace,

I think your friend steered you right. I haven't had any back or any serious skeletal/joint problems since beginning Wing Chun. The practice seems to strengthen the body while doing minimal stress damage. I don't know of any art which is less likely to harm your back, but the risk is still there.

There are differences in Wing Chun lineages as to the degree of twisting incorporated into their forms, chi sao, and other expressions of Wing Chun. Yip Man Wing Chun emphasizes low kicks and straight up the middle tactics while holding the trunk aligned. This last should be supportive of building up lumbar strength while minimizing torsion of the vertebral column.

I don't know where you're located, but if it's the Bay Area, check out Ken Chung or Ben Der of Leung Sheung lineage or WT, Leung Ting's or Emin Boeztepe's lineages. Or if you're elswhere, Chu Shun Tin, Lok Yiu, Lo Man Kam, or Augustine Fong lines. All of these are the traditional Yip Man focus on structure. I don't mean to exclude any other Wing Chun options, but these are the lines with which I am most familiar. Of course, I like my own (Ben Der) the best.

Obviously, you want to explain your needs to any potential teacher and find out what he or she thinks about their style in relation to your problem. I'd avoid any school which emphasizes high or non-Wing Chun-style kicks for obvious reasons.

Good luck. Be well.

[taltos]

Hello Ace.

Although it is not the same problem, my Sifu had major lower back surgery in the past, and even had to have a few of his lower back vertebrae fused. While this has limited his total field of motion in his lower back and caused pain, it was not a hinderance to his studying of both the Yip Man and Hung Fa Yi lineages of Wing Chun.

One of the great things about Wing Chun is that it is based on natural, human movements, and does not require incredible feats of dexterity and flexibility.

Sounds like your friend had some great advice in steering you towards Wing Chun.

-Levi

[anerlich]

I have a damaged L5, vertebra, not disk, and a related spondyliolisthesis with L5 slipped anteriorly on S1.

I suffered lots of pain through my late teens to early thirties as a result. I personally found GP's completely useless, and chiropractors varied greatly in knowledge and quality, and even the best were only useful at treating acute symptoms rather than providing lasting improvement.

I finally went to a physiotherapist, who gave me exercises to develop the muscles around my injury and prvide it with protection in that way. After three months with him, my back pain was gone more or less permanentlly. These days, at nearly 49, I'm doing Wing Chun, including head high kicks, and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, not exactly an art for someone with a weak back. And I train pretty hard and pretty often.

Wing Chun is a fighting art. Contrary to the claims of some, it is not a system of health cultivation. It's probably better for your back than skiing moguls, powerlifting, bobsledding or contortionism, but IMO no more or less than many other activities.

IMO, flexibility training will be good for you. Maybe yoga. High kicks need not damage you if the mechanics are correct (and IMO a good teacher of this in WC is hard to find) and you don't do anything ridiculous.

But don't listen to me or anyone else on this board. Get advice from a number of health professionals. Seek third fourth and fifth opinions.

[aelward]

I also had a herniated disk between L5 and S1 with sciatica going down all the way to my foot before I started Wing Chun. During the first two years, I never really had any problems at all, just a limited range of motion with the lower body.

Then I started learning Biu Jee. Before we actually start learning the form, my Sifu has us do an exercise to isolate the turn in the torso for the kup jarn. Basically, sit in a low horse stance and punch 90 degrees from the center while twisting on the hips. The first time I did it, I heard this popping sound.... and the sciatica and back pain went away. Except for some back spasms once a year or so, I have not had a problem since...

[Ace]

Thank you all for the replies so far. I'm located in the Dallas, Tx area and I know that there should be some good Wing Chun training in my area (just need to find it.)

I'm finding everyone's comments to be very interesting as I need something with a strong cobat orientation while keeping my disc challenge in mind.

If anyone else would like to comment on any of the above, I'd love to hear it. Thanks again.

[Andrew Williams]

Hello Ace.

Because your condition is a serious one, where aggravation or further in injury is very possible ensure that your particular needs will be met. You will have to establish a balance between self management and the expertise of the instructor/s, the less they know the more you will have to.

Here are some recommendations I generally make to my clients and students

1. Find out everything you can about your injury (if you have not already), everything. Read case studies on rehabilitative sites, in books and demand that your medical practitioners tell you everything they know. I would seek out a clinician that has an understanding of the function of the Transversus Abdominis and how to test its functional capacity, one that understands myofascial trains/chains. Unless they can do this, they are wasting your time.

2. As suggest by Andrew N. seek out alternate exercise methods. Yoga (particularly Ashtanga) can be an excellent part of the development of your multilateral base. The focus on control of the Bandhas (Mulabandha=pelvic floor lock, Uddiyana Banhda=Transversus Abdominis activation and the Jalandhara Bandha=the hyoid lock) will help in many aspects of your life. I hasten to add the development of these muscles and thewir function should be the prime activity in any rehabilitative effort and/or preparation for an athletic endeavour, all else secondary to this.

3. Do not think of your injury in isolation, the problem you have, in all likelihood, has affected most of your motor patterns, skeletal alignment and perceptual motor foundations. You will need to understand this, if you do not then even the seemingly simplest exercise could be damaging.

4. Get a letter from your treating physician, one that gives clear information on what you can and can’t do. Give it to the head instructor and ask him/her if they understand its contents. It does not matter too much if they don’t, it just means you will have to be more demanding and forthright in what you will and will not do in your practice. Ask about their insurance. If they are unable to handle your requests or seem annoyed by them, then that school is probably not for you.

5. Watch a class, note how the students are treated, particularly the beginners and who instructs them? I know an instructor who caused serious and permanent back damage to over half of his students, in just a couple of weeks, after introducing a new exercise that “he” could do.

6. Get FIT to practice Wing Chun, not practice Wing Chun to get fit. Again as Andrew W. suggests Wing Chun is no cure all, under the guidance of an informed instructor it can make up a small part of the rehabilitative process (this is a life time thing for anyone with a serious back condition) but is not a whole.

Cheers Ace
Andrew W.

[Phenix]

HI


I have had a herniated disc on L5 (lower lumbar) for several years. I have been able to do pretty much anything I needed or wanted to do without much limitation other than extreme twisting from the waist or bending backwards. Lately though, I have been experiencing some twinges in my lower back. Both a chiroprator & medical doctor agree that it is not really getting any worse, but that I need to be careful with my activities. ----



I suggest you might want to check out Gay Hendricks breathing video tape to learn how to do great breathing. since breathing and spine works hand in hand. ---HS


I need to focus on art that I can use from a self-defense/combat perspective & that I can practice with minimal problems associated with the disc. A friend of mine recommended I look into Wing Chun as he has an acquaitance with a problem similar to mine who decided on Wing Chun due to it's structure & linear movements. ----


L5 is in the Ming Men area that is a core of all movement. IMHO Yang Taiji might be better for you. Chen TaijI is not good due to the fajing.... WCK I would say not as good as Yang Style.

As for self-defense/combat, IMHO, health is the real self-defence/combat. if the art can't strenghten or design to absorb the impact to the weak part of one's physical. Then, chances are one will get into trouble before even get into real fight situation. Real fight we might be able to avoid. But, health, we have to face it every second.

Any fajing will shock the ming men area. thus, handle with care.
Yang style is more relax and can also built up good combat skill. but then ofcorse that also depend on the sifu. so, what I say is petty general.

[yuanfen]

Ace- both Andrew-s have given you sound advice. Anecdotally-over
30 years ago I had a major crisis with the disk at the base of the lumbar and beginning of the sacral structures-triggered by heavy furniture lifting the wrong way-the standard pathology of sciatic pain, collapse and beginning leg atrophy followed. A real sustained disaster for several months. Got multiple medical opinions-lots of xrays- found out emprically that I could get any opinion I wanted- atop flight neurosurgeon in Tucson wanted to operate and scheduled mylogram and surgery. I got other opinions and cancelled. Being "skeptical" of authority got atop orthopedic surgeon's opinion- you can always cut later if you have to. Chiropractor wanted to manipulate. Osteopath wanted to pull my leg. An internist suggested the then experimental injection of papain. Cortisone, Traction. You name it- some pro suggested it.

So----became my own expert---extensive professional medical literature of that time- I devoured it. Read Asian literature too
and alternative medicine lit. Consumer advocacy lit too-too many back surgeries are done.

So- I set up my own edge of the bed traction mechanism. Got into a swimming pool daily- to do specific exercises with the buoancy.
Looked up my old yoga master- he is 93 years old now. Deviseda tailor made yoga routine for me(not the YMCA-health club stuff).
Lost some weight and built myself up from scratch. Began wing chun in 1976 witha pretty good understanding of the structural details of the slt stance and then the chor ma turns.

Step by step building- I knew what I was doing...crawl before you walk-walk before you run...

I have been doing pretty good wing chun since 1976, have "sparred" when I wanted to, put my structure to considerable tesing. My back is stronger than it was in 1973.
Being alert curious and proactive in managing one's health
is importany IMO.
Of course-I hope that you seek out a competent wing chun teacher.

[Ace]

Thank you all for the excellent replies. I appreciate all the time & thought you've put into your efforts. My main concern is finding an art/system that I can train in and apply with hopefully minimal negative impact on my injury.

I'll definitely check out Wing Chun as a probable art.

BTW, any suggstions for good Wing Chun schools in the Dallas area?

[yuanfen]

Ace- whatever you do, be sure to let your sifu know about your concerns.

[Keng Geng]

Originally posted by Ace
A friend of mine recommended I look into Wing Chun as he has an acquaitance with a problem similar to mine who decided on Wing Chun due to it's structure & linear movements.

It's not an issue of style, it's an issue of teacher, as no style practised and taught properly should worsen your situation. If anything it should help.

Look for a good teacher, not a style.

If that fails, try yoga or mitzvah.

[Edmund]

Originally posted by Andrew Williams
2. As suggest by Andrew N. seek out alternate exercise methods. Yoga (particularly Ashtanga) can be an excellent part of the development of your multilateral base. The focus on control of the Bandhas (Mulabandha=pelvic floor lock, Uddiyana Banhda=Transversus Abdominis activation and the Jalandhara Bandha=the hyoid lock) will help in many aspects of your life. I hasten to add the development of these muscles and thewir function should be the prime activity in any rehabilitative effort and/or preparation for an athletic endeavour, all else secondary to this.
[/B]

Hello Andrew,

By "Uddiyana Bandha" possibly you are referring to a Ashtanga variation?

As I leant it, Uddiyana Bandha, is retracting your abdomen so that your bellybutton moves towards the spine. The diaphragm moves up under the rib cage. The ab muscles are meant to be completely relaxed and passive.

While it is considered a beneficial exercise, I don't know if it will rehab a bad back very much.

[yuanfen]

Edmund- most "bandhs" around the midsection can help the back.
The reconstruction is cumulative.