Chin Na question regarding styles

[Oso]

btw, NP (and MK and Mizongkid) nice pic

finally got my ish of the rag...must be on the ass end of the distribution cycle.

later...my review of the TZ article...

[Mutant]

yes GWL and some of the other guys already provided some very good answers.

i'll try to add my .02 cents.
there are a handful of fundamental core techniques that are important to grasp (no pun intended), and once you get those you could put together any number of combinations or variations. these combinations are only good if they adhere to certain principles of covering and protecting yourself. there is a danger that making overly elaborate combinations (which seems commonplace), especially w/o really understanding the core technique, and having unrealistic expectations of how they might be used to control an opponent, could do more harm then good.

they are the same joint locks in different systems (there are only so many ways that the body moves) but some systems/teachers may have a higher developed understanding and use of them. diffenent styles usually jsut teach them with different names and variations. i have noticed that some styles don't seem to 'have' all of the core techniques emphasized or developed to the same degree. if they don't teach all the important basics but have numerous variations of some other techniques, whatever teh number, then it is not a complete chin na system. thats how you would assess and compare systems.

people (Jwing-Ming included) have a tendency to over complicate things. in cataloging and numbering all those different chin na techniques, the core techniques are sort of obscured, like not seeing the forrest through the trees. even though he catagorizes them into dividing tendon, displacing bone, etc (or however exactly he terms them), the fact that these '72' techniques are just variations on several basic core techniques is not always clear. and the number 72 is quite arbitrary imo. maybe it has something to do with the history of his system or something, i forget. and its not that his books are bad, theyre okay, but you have to remember that he's running a business and will complicate things enough to differentiate himself as the expert and sell more books and seminars.

the book is a decent reference, but it would be confusing trying to learn much besides terms and history from it. forget the numbers. just find a real good teacher(s) (if you havent already) who will concentrate on the core techniques with a hands on approach. the only way to learn it is to feel it and practice practice practice with somebody good who can lead you through the puzzles.

[GLW]

Workable is the key idea...

For example, Qinna that operates on immobilization and does not require you to absolutely be stronger than the person you are doing the Qinna on is workable.

Qinna that operates on the principle of inflicting pain on the other person is not.

Of course you are now saying "Whoa, wait a minute there..."

Why is it NOT workable...well, there are a number of things that the other person can do to remove pain as a factor. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... are all very real examples. Personally, after having worked in a psych hospital as the man in the white coat that takes you away, I can say that pain based Qinna does NOT work on a person on Crack, PCP, large amounts of downers, etc... I saw a guy try to kick through a metal door. He broke his foot and ended up not being able to bust the door down. NOT because he was hurting but because the foot was giving way under him as he tried to get up speed for the final assault on the door.

Qinna that works against gravity - bad idea. There are a lot of Qinna techniques that cause the opponent to raise up - on the tip toes often. These are painful...but require you as the person executing the Qinna to maintain an upward force against gravity.

How long do you do this? What happens if you tire before you decide what to do with the person... Or if you slip.

My preference is fo those techniques that either end in a takedown, throw, or break...and move on. Or those techniques that put the opponent sprawled out on the ground in a very unmenacing position. This way, gravity works with you.

I also do not care for Qinna techniques that take a setup and require hand changes, position changes, etc... They are prone to failure due to mistakes. Too complicated gets you hurt.

Also, any Qinna technique that requires better than 50% accuracy is not on my list. If you are off by an inch in a strike, kick, or throw, the opponent is usually still hit or thrown...it just may not do as much damage as if you were dead on.

With Qinna, many of the techniques require dead on accuracy to work. Miss it by a half inch and you get hit. Given how fast a real altercation goes and the fact that I am human, I am simply not going to bet on that type of a technique where my well being is concerned.

Techniques like that are interesting...but in the end, simple is best. Sticking with direct basic principles applied as minimalistically as possible is the way to use it.

[Oso]

so, in other words, understand the basic mechanics of the joints/tendons and KISS.

I totally agree that YJM has some pretty intricate stuff in his books and it does take prior knowledge to see the forest for the trees. However, there is a progression from 'Shaolin Chin Na' through 'Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na' and on to 'Comprehensive Applications of SCN'.

the following is just my .02 (well, maybe .04) on YJM's chin na books.

'Shaolin Chin Na' is as basic as it gets, IMO. The first 50 pages are nothing but conditioning and simple releases. Out of a 159 page book there are only about 60 pages of actual techniques. There is even a section on simple massage. This would be the companion book for a newbie martial artist who is recieving instruction from a competent teacher.

'Analysis...' is billed as an instructors manual. So, if someone doesn't have the basics down, it will seem confusing and even more so with 'Comprehensive...'

'Comprehensive...' does really go out there a bit. But, as the third in what I see as a series, it fits. IMO, an extremely knowledgable chin na practitioner showing his stuff.

The other chin na books he has produced seemed to me to contain material already in one of the above three.

and, no, I'm not a YMAA student nor have I ever met YJM. I've had chin na taught to me by every sifu i've had as well as some japanese jujitsu and wrestling. These 3 books have been invaluable as aids to learning and improving my own chin na.

as always, seek your initial and ongoing instruction from someone qualified to teach.

GLW, good post, hope you don't mind some debate on it.

Workable is the key idea...

For example, Qinna that operates on immobilization and does not require you to absolutely be stronger than the person you are doing the Qinna on is workable.

completely agree.

Qinna that operates on the principle of inflicting pain on the other person is not.

Of course you are now saying "Whoa, wait a minute there..."

Why is it NOT workable...well, there are a number of things that the other person can do to remove pain as a factor. Drugs, alcohol, mental illness, etc... are all very real examples. Personally, after having worked in a psych hospital as the man in the white coat that takes you away, I can say that pain based Qinna does NOT work on a person on Crack, PCP, large amounts of downers, etc... I saw a guy try to kick through a metal door. He broke his foot and ended up not being able to bust the door down. NOT because he was hurting but because the foot was giving way under him as he tried to get up speed for the final assault on the door.

I completely agree with your example to back up the initial statement. However, I don't feel you should not examine and practice 'pain compliance' techniques as they will work on a large % of people. Police forces utilize pain compliance at the core of thier techniques and of course have back up plans if it doesn't work, just as we should.

Qinna that works against gravity - bad idea. There are a lot of Qinna techniques that cause the opponent to raise up - on the tip toes often. These are painful...but require you as the person executing the Qinna to maintain an upward force against gravity.

I don't feel these techniques are actually working against gravity.
You are causing pain in a manner which makes the person try to move to relieve that pain. Only they can't because they can't fly So, they are on their toes. The same restrictions for any pain compliance technique will still apply as discussed above.

How long do you do this? What happens if you tire before you decide what to do with the person...

the applicable word here is 'flow'. None of the apps I know for 'lifting' chin na are good submissions. so, you need to move on once control is achieved before you lose said control. or tire.

My preference is fo those techniques that either end in a takedown, throw, or break...and move on. Or those techniques that put the opponent sprawled out on the ground in a very unmenacing position.

mine as well. imo/ime that is the purpose of chin na. the problem with most books is that they show single, unconnected techniques. that's why you need a teacher, as we all agree.

This way, gravity works with you.

'why hit someone with your hand or fist if you can hit them with the whole world?'

heard that somewhere. makes sense even if it is a bit melodramatic.

...or if you slip....

I also do not care for Qinna techniques that take a setup and require hand changes, position changes, etc... They are prone to failure due to mistakes. Too complicated gets you hurt.

learning set-ups, hand changes and position changes are necessary for when you slip, screw up, get tired in one position or you suddenly have a non-cooperating person to deal with. what you move from and to with the changes should be simple and the changes themselves should be simple but without changes I feel one would be very staticky (yea, yea) in their approach.

as an aside: the chin na that came out of Remy Presas' Modern Arnis combined (IMO) a lot of Prof. Wally Jay's small circle jujitsu and the flow concepts of the arnis. it is from this experience that I draw the above conclusion.

Also, any Qinna technique that requires better than 50% accuracy is not on my list. If you are off by an inch in a strike, kick, or throw, the opponent is usually still hit or thrown...it just may not do as much damage as if you were dead on.

I agree to a large extent but don't we want to achieve a high level of skill in what we are learning? While a % of applications seen in books (including YJM's) could be low % apps in general, something that is low % for you or I may not be for someone else.

[QUOTE]With Qinna, many of the techniques require dead on accuracy to work. Miss it by a half inch and you get hit. Given how fast a real altercation goes and the fact that I am human, I am simply not going to bet on that type of a technique where my well being is concerned.
[QUOTE]

so are you saying that you feel that chin na techniques are so low % in general that you wouldn't use them at all? What do you mean by simple?

Techniques like that are interesting...but in the end, simple is best. Sticking with direct basic principles applied as minimalistically as possible is the way to use it.

Absolutely. However, I think there are varying degrees of simple based on an individuals skill level.

thanks, Matt.

[GLW]

"
GLW, good post, hope you don't mind some debate on it.
"

Not at all...

"
I completely agree with your example to back up the initial statement. However, I don't feel you should not examine and practice 'pain compliance' techniques as they will work on a large % of people. Police forces utilize pain compliance at the core of thier techniques and of course have back up plans if it doesn't work, just as we should.
"

Pain will always be a factor. I am just of the opinion that your choice of methods should not solely rely on pain but rather rely on structural immobilization. That means that by executing the proper technique, the opponent is put in a position where they cannot move or cannot use a body part to threaten you. The fact is that USUALLY, a byproduct of this immobilization is also PAIN...but the pain is not the cause of the immobilization, the immobilization is the cause of the pain. In this way, even if the opponent is stoned out of their mind, you STILL have them immobilized even if they do not feel the pain.


"
the applicable word here is 'flow'. None of the apps I know for 'lifting' chin na are good submissions. so, you need to move on once control is achieved before you lose said control. or tire.
"

I am simply of the opinion that if you are flowing around in Qinna it is probably better to go ahead and break things (remove the threat by making that which threatens you not work). Every time you perform a change, there is a risk of mistake and having it go badly for you. Qinna is actually merciful to the opponent. You do it to control in many cases. When mercy to the opponent becomes masochism or potential masochism to me, I abandon the mercy road. For me, rather than flow to another Qinna, I would probably choose to break what I had, then do a take down in the process that would possibly also include some strike to harm.


"learning set-ups, hand changes and position changes are necessary for when you slip, screw up, get tired in one position or you suddenly have a non-cooperating person to deal with. what you move from and to with the changes should be simple and the changes themselves should be simple but without changes I feel one would be very staticky (yea, yea) in their approach."

Again, my preference for the changes is to do something that disables things rather than continue with another lock. Most Qinna can be turned into a break of the joint you are working on (for joint Qinna). If you have a person that simply won't let you lock and stay where you are, lock, break, then move to another thing.



"I agree to a large extent but don't we want to achieve a high level of skill in what we are learning? While a % of applications seen in books (including YJM's) could be low % apps in general, something that is low % for you or I may not be for someone else.
"

In most arts, you have Da(striking), Ti(kicking), Shuai(throwing,wrestling), and Na(locking/grasping). Very few arts place Na as the most important. Given the amount of time required for proficiency and the time demands of modern life, I simply feel that the other three types of techniques yield more repeatable results for the time put in. (I also have seen a number of folks that simply want to leanr Qinna but not the rest of the art. Sort of like saying give me the keys but not the car and the gas...and they usually have the poorest basics as well - so I avoid such things personally)

[Tak]

The fact is that USUALLY, a byproduct of this immobilization is also PAIN...but the pain is not the cause of the immobilization, the immobilization is the cause of the pain

Agreed, for locks and throat holds. You have a good point that the other two aspects of qin na, splitting the muscles and attacking the sensitive areas (I'd say pressure points if not for confusion with dim mak), may not work on someone who is drunk, stoned, enraged, etc. These are usually variations on top of other techniques, though, so I'd say it's definitely not a waste of time to learn and practice them.

I understand and agree with your preference to destroy rather than transition to another lock, but sometimes it's not all right to do so, like if you're a bouncer or a police officer in a non-life-threatening situation.

I also have seen a number of folks that simply want to leanr Qinna but not the rest of the art. Sort of like saying give me the keys but not the car and the gas...

I think that this is because of the reputation it has as being an "equalizer" - people want to be able to deal with bigger, stronger people while putting in a minimum of effort. All those self-defense seminars that tell people that a single lock can subdue any opponent probably don't help anything.

[GLW]

Having worked in a psych hospital, I found that even some immobilization techniques did not work on really wacked out people. They would actually go against it and break themselves in the process.

In one instance, I had a perfectly fine lock on the patient's arm/elbow and was rooted in a very solid horse stance and safe as can be... The other staff member supposed to be assisting only had to redirect the patient's other arm. Instead, that bozo staff member let the patient pick them up. They could not move me and I was about to take the patient down to the ground (a change) when the patient used the other staff mamber as a bowling ball for all three of us. My lock held but we all went flying and when all was said and done, I was using tweezers to pull glass from broken light bulbs out of my arm. Needless to say, I determined that if I was going to be hit, I would take out the other person first....I also removed myself from any and all situations where the other person can do more harm to me than I am allowed to do to them...

As for the self-defense classes, that is a major pet peeve for me. They take money but actually end up with the student worse off because now they think they know something.

[Oso]

As for the self-defense classes, that is a major pet peeve for me. They take money but actually end up with the student worse off because now they think they know something.

AMEN. But, SD classes that taught...what, maybe 1 technique an hour...wouldn't sell. So, people teaching that stuff try and cram as much stuff in as possible without any meaningful drill time. I had that complaint with Guro Presas in his later seminars. Too much stuff to get a good grasp. I'd rather learn 2 or 3 things over a couple of hours and come away really knowing them.

I'll come back later...but as a question: how long do you think it takes to 'learn' a new chin na move? Not 'master' whatever that means but learn it well enough to drill it later w/o help from the person that taught it to you. I said an hour above but maybe less could be appropriate.

[Becca]

how long do you think it takes to 'learn' a new chin na move? Not 'master' whatever that means but learn it well enough to drill it later w/o help from the person that taught it to you. I said an hour above but maybe less could be appropriate.

Depends on the techique... If you now something similar, it could take as little as 20 minutes.

As far as not wanting to move: Sorter people like me often can't make the techique work well with out a side step, a twist or something similar. You get them in the basic position then move your body in a way they can't follow from that position. That is often the best way for me to get enough torq on the lock to actually control them.

[GLW]

Depends on the person and the technique.

If you have zero basics, it can take days. You are not ready for a good while to even attempt it with a remotely unwilling partner.

If you have been doing Qinna for a while and have a bit of skill already, you can learn a new one in a matter of less than an hour.

Now, knowing how to apply it, flow, deal with resistance, deal with what is exact for the technique and what is just off enough for it not to work....that can take a lot of time...and the more complex the technique, the longer it takes.

I learned my first technique and was trying to just get the move...then got paired with a person with an ego problem. He had been at it much longer than me as well. So, I attempt the technique and it will NEVER work. Well, years later I realized that he was employing the first level of defense against that technique. By then, I knew how to dissolve that defense - but as a newbie, he stopped me dead and then made it seem like I was just not getting it.

As a teacher now, if I find a student doing that, I make sure that I go over and "Coach" the person being jerked around...so that they can do it first....and then I put the jerk on the floor...and then while rubbing the painful joint, I ask them to relax and flow with it so they can all learn...and that later, resistance will be added. That tends to make an example of the one person public enough so I rarely have to do it again.

[norther practitioner]

but as a newbie, he stopped me dead and then made it seem like I was just not getting it.

That type of things gets really annoying as a newbie in chi na (or anything for that matter).

(by the way, is that you in that pic on 97?)


I'd have to agree with the timeframe with chi na. It takes a while, but once you realize how a move works, it makes it much easier to improvise.

[GLW]

page 97? Is that the one on Taiji Legacy with all the pictures?

Involved in Chinese Martial Arts events from the very first one....never ben in a magazine...I show up with my daughter...her first time..and she is in the magazine.

[Oso]

GLW:
Pain will always be a factor. I am just of the opinion that your choice of methods should not solely rely on pain but rather rely on structural immobilization. That means that by executing the proper technique, the opponent is put in a position where they cannot move or cannot use a body part to threaten you. The fact is that USUALLY, a byproduct of this immobilization is also PAIN...but the pain is not the cause of the immobilization, the immobilization is the cause of the pain. In this way, even if the opponent is stoned out of their mind, you STILL have them immobilized even if they do not feel the pain.

OSO:
agreed. pain is a facet of the bigger picture. not to be ignored or canonized.

GLW:
I am simply of the opinion that if you are flowing around in Qinna it is probably better to go ahead and break things (remove the threat by making that which threatens you not work).

OSO:
my perspective on chin na has always been one of control.
when you break a limb you can no longer control below the break WITH CHIN NA. You could possibly control with the pain of the break. Not opposed to breaking something if that seems the thing to do. Certainly the ultimate end of any chin na could be maiming.

GLW:
Every time you perform a change, there is a risk of mistake and having it go badly for you.

OSO:
granted but that's true for anything. again, I tend to come at the concept of flowing as need based due to the actions of the opponent not just cuz I want to.

GLW:
Qinna is actually merciful to the opponent. You do it to control in many cases. When mercy to the opponent becomes masochism or potential masochism to me, I abandon the mercy road. For me, rather than flow to another Qinna, I would probably choose to break what I had, then do a take down in the process that would possibly also include some strike to harm.

OSO:
I guess when I talk about chin na ONLY I'm only thinking about the period of time when chin na is an option, not after chin na is not an option. I agree with your standard for when chin na is not an option.

GLW:
Again, my preference for the changes is to do something that disables things rather than continue with another lock. Most Qinna can be turned into a break of the joint you are working on (for joint Qinna). If you have a person that simply won't let you lock and stay where you are, lock, break, then move to another thing.

OSO:
yep.

GLW:
In most arts, you have Da(striking), Ti(kicking), Shuai(throwing,wrestling), and Na(locking/grasping). Very few arts place Na as the most important. Given the amount of time required for proficiency and the time demands of modern life, I simply feel that the other three types of techniques yield more repeatable results for the time put in. (I also have seen a number of folks that simply want to leanr Qinna but not the rest of the art. Sort of like saying give me the keys but not the car and the gas...and they usually have the poorest basics as well - so I avoid such things personally)

OSO:
agreed. chin na has just been a focus for me because I was able to do it as well as the other aspects.

[Ky-Fi]

Originally posted by GLW

I learned my first technique and was trying to just get the move...then got paired with a person with an ego problem. He had been at it much longer than me as well. So, I attempt the technique and it will NEVER work. Well, years later I realized that he was employing the first level of defense against that technique. By then, I knew how to dissolve that defense - but as a newbie, he stopped me dead and then made it seem like I was just not getting it.

As a teacher now, if I find a student doing that, I make sure that I go over and "Coach" the person being jerked around...so that they can do it first....and then I put the jerk on the floor...and then while rubbing the painful joint, I ask them to relax and flow with it so they can all learn...and that later, resistance will be added. That tends to make an example of the one person public enough so I rarely have to do it again.

Awesome! I've seen my teacher do the same thing to the "resistors". That is one of my BIGGEST pet peaves with chin na training, when, once in a while, you get the partner who tenses up and purposely resists. When you're first learning a chin na technique, and you're moving slowly to get the angle, and your partner knows exactly what you're going to do---if he resists, then there's NO way you're going to learn and it's totally wasting the practice time; you have to initially learn the feel of the angle and lock while he's somewhat relaxed.

I came up with my own solution to that problem in one class, too. We had been learning a few different Taiji apps during the class, so when my partner tensed up on the chin na app we were working on (from pushing hands), at the last second I stepped in with a different app that we had learned earlier (an upward pushing "grasp sparrow's tail" to the chest). This pushed him back a couple steps, I made my point, and I also got a chuckle out of him. Not so easy to resist when you don't know it's coming .

[David Jamieson]

One of the guys who I had teh pleasuer of doing a couple of days of training with in the fall actually had a great remark about joint locks. I'll paraphrase:

"the easiest person to put a lock on is a martial artist"

Think about it, all the time you are taught "go with the flow, roll with it, etc etc"

Now, try immediately rejecting the attempted technique and pull away from the lock and make a noise, like a sharp yell.

You might surprise yourself at how inneffective Chin Na becomes when you try to pull it off on an average person who has a natural response to pain and fear, unlike a great deal of Martial artists who are in the mind set of attempting to counter, roll with, or go with the tech.

Discussing this in that time brought all sorts of good stuff to the top of my mind again in regards to the bitter reality of real encounters.

Sumpin to tink about anyway.

cheers