about Jeet Kune Do and Muay Thai...

[apoweyn]

I think that's plenty personally. See how you feel about the whole thing first.

[Qigong]

ite ill see how it is, im goin to watch a JKD class tonite at 7:15....so ill let you guys know how it goes...peace

[Kymus]

[i]

This is looking pretty hopeful from where I'm standing. Particularly from an eskrima standpoint. Qigong, I'd suggest you do some reading up on eskrima and see how you feel about it, since that looks to be his biggest strength.


Stuart B. [/B]

I agree, my escrima,jkd, muay thai teacher (http://www.pamausa.com/Pages/rick.html) also is involved with WEKAF.

I say go for it.

[Scythefall]

Originally posted by SevenStar
MT's leg strikes utilize the knee at all angles and some power generation methods that can be awkward feeling to newbies, like fully turning the hip over during the roundhouse kick, keeping the leg bent, thrusting fully forward while doing striaght knees and the teep, opening the hip before turning it over while doing a front leg roundhouse, turning the foot of your base leg outward as you shuffle before delivering a switch leg roundhouse, etc. The mechanics are different from what I've experienced in other styles.

I may be not quite getting what you're saying, but if you do a roundhouse in any style, you need to turn your hip over or you will not be doing it correctly. If someone is not turning their hip over, you shouldn't really have much trouble blocking their kick with your arm. If they turn their hip over your arm is going to be hurting if you try to block it. Explain more about the leg being bent if you can.

Side kicks require you to open the hip too. Your back heel faces the opponent, which turns the hip, and your leg fires out almost behind you.

Only difference I've really seen in Muay Thai kicks is that they strike with their shin and not the top of their foot like we do in Northern Shaolin. The Tae Kwon Do and Karate I've taken stresses that you pull the toes back and kick with the ball of the foot which gives a penetrating power.

[SevenStar]

with the roundhouse seen in tkd, karate, etc., the leg has more of a snap. You can kick, and whether you hit or miss, you can retract and rechamber the leg. with the MT kick, you cannot. If you miss, you will just rotate around, there is no retracting it. The whole body goes through the target, not simply the lower leg. In the roundhouse kick you are describing, the hip is (or at least should be) turned over, for the reasons you stated, but the kick doesn't have the same follow through. There's a way bigger difference than merely kicking with the shin. Even the footwork used while throwing the kick is different. As far as the leg being bent, with the roundhouse you see in many styles, you chamber the leg, turn the hip over, pivot on the back foot and extend the lower leg, completing the extension of the kick. the leg is then rechambered. with the MT rear leg roundhouse, there is no chamber, the leg functions as one unit. there is no rechamber - the leg is returned by the rebound you have off of your target. If there's nothing rebound off of, the kick continues it's arc.

With the sidekick, the hip opens as you complete the technique. It opens as you pivot on your base foot. What I was referring to was the front leg roundhouse - when you lift the leg, you open the hip then close it as you kick.

[SevenStar]

check out this article - it's simplified, as he states, but you should be able to get a pretty clear picture of it.

http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/mt/kk1.html

[EmptyCup]

although it's always in the end up to the individual, how he trains, and his teacher....for the most part I'd say muay thai prepares you to be a fighter better. Realistic and not fancy, simple and to the point...proven in fights...training the way training should be.

For the most part JKD is a big mess. The trapping taught doesn't work properly and is worse than the bad wing chun that is taught nowadays. Not to mention all the wing chun techniques that they use. I have seen the stuff from all the major tachers and the wing chun is very bad. The other stuff, such as the concepts ppl's filipino stuff I cannot judge b/c I do not a thing about escrima/kali/etc but the wing chun is very lacking.

As for sevenstar's explanation, to add to that, imagine TKD kicks to be a whip and thai kick's to be a baseball bat swung full. That's the difference between them. The latter has more blunt force but when done right the former has great cutting power and speed. Also less telegraphed and harder to jam up. Plus b/c the skin is not the contact point, kicks will hurt less if you don't deaden the nerves and have more reach.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by EmptyCup


As for sevenstar's explanation, to add to that, imagine TKD kicks to be a whip and thai kick's to be a baseball bat swung full.

that's the exact analogy I was going to use, but then I started looking for better descriptions of the kick and forgot to post it.

Also less telegraphed and harder to jam up.

the true beauty of the kick is in the setup...

[Kymus]

Originally posted by EmptyCup


For the most part JKD is a big mess. The trapping taught doesn't work properly

I don't know where you got this impression from, but it must've been from a poor teacher. The trapping I know is through Jeet Kune Do, and it does work. I have used it in fights successfully and it has worked as it is supposed to. JKD is a very quick and efficient system that is easy to pick up and good to use in combat. I've crosstrained in many different things and I've sparred people with JKD and have never found that the techniques I use do not work.

I do agree muchly with your analogy of Muay Thai though. When I was taught, we were always told to go through the oppenent with our kicks. It is, like you said, a baseball bat - comming at you with full force.
I read an interview with Benny "The Jet" and he talked about the early days of tournaments and he mentioned how no one kicks harder than the Muay Thai guys. I think he said something about how he hated fighting them in tournaments because of the fact that their kicks were very hard.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Kymus



I agree, my escrima,jkd, muay thai teacher (http://www.pamausa.com/Pages/rick.html) also is involved with WEKAF.

I say go for it.

Rick Tucci. Very cool, Kymus!

[apoweyn]

I may be not quite getting what you're saying, but if you do a roundhouse in any style, you need to turn your hip over or you will not be doing it correctly. If someone is not turning their hip over, you shouldn't really have much trouble blocking their kick with your arm. If they turn their hip over your arm is going to be hurting if you try to block it. Explain more about the leg being bent if you can.

That's not really true. I've come across several teachers who taught the roundkick without turning the hip over. It doesn't generate the power of a hip-turn round kick. But within the context of their overall tactics, they were doing it perfectly correctly.

The big advantage of a round kick with no hip commitment is clearly not the power. It's the lack of alteration in your basic fighting stance. The biggest advantage of that is the ability to quickly follow up with the hands afterward. You don't have to turn your hip back over before you can close with the hands.

What that means is that hands can follow feet faster than they could with a more committed kick. So if your general tactics involve more handwork, then that form of round kick could well be correct for you. It cuts valuable seconds off of the gaps in your combinations. And as Fu Pow said in another thread, that's an eternity in a match or fight.


Stuart B.

[EmptyCup]

the impression could be from a "poor" teacher but it was from all the most famous and recognized JKD teachers. So unless there's a JKD instructor who has never been recognized as such who is fantastic and better than all the big names, then I dunno...

I find it odd that you say you used the trapping in fights exactly as they were taught and supposed to work. Please give some examples as I have never seen a JKD trapping situation prsenting itself in a real fight and all the fighters I talk to say traps don't get used and if so not the way it is trained/taught.

the JKD ppl I have worked with didn't know what they were doing. Perhaps it was just bc they were bad at it but I do have issues with the techniques themselves and their ability to work...

Benny the Jet's spotless record wouldn't be so spotless if they counted his thai fights

If you would like further info please PM me as some thing I do not want to discuss publically b/c ppl will be offended. For example, names of the JKD instructors I speak of....

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by apoweyn


That's not really true. I've come across several teachers who taught the roundkick without turning the hip over. It doesn't generate the power of a hip-turn round kick. But within the context of their overall tactics, they were doing it perfectly correctly.

The big advantage of a round kick with no hip commitment is clearly not the power. It's the lack of alteration in your basic fighting stance. The biggest advantage of that is the ability to quickly follow up with the hands afterward. You don't have to turn your hip back over before you can close with the hands.

What that means is that hands can follow feet faster than they could with a more committed kick. So if your general tactics involve more handwork, then that form of round kick could well be correct for you. It cuts valuable seconds off of the gaps in your combinations. And as Fu Pow said in another thread, that's an eternity in a match or fight.


Stuart B.

someone give ap a cookie!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by SevenStar


someone give ap a cookie!

Ah sweet! Cookies!!

[rogue]

Side kicks require you to open the hip too. Your back heel faces the opponent, which turns the hip, and your leg fires out almost behind you.

Really? Tell that to the Shotokan guys I know. Whatever power they give up by doing a classical sidekick, planted foot moves little if at all and striking with the blade of the foot chamber with kicking foot againt knee, they make up with speed, recovery, options, protection and they stay upright. They're a pain to deal with. You try to rush them you may hit their knee, try to jam them they'll kick your back leg or go low. And they still have their hands available.