Advice on Open Hand Strikes

[Chris Raywood]

I am hoping someone can help me with this one. For the last seventeen years I have trained in the Japanese arts (specifically systems influenced by Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu). Now that I am approaching my mid-fifties, I have recently made a switch to Aikido. The techniques are a little easier on the body, the art is somewhat related to what I have previously studied, and I can hopefully enjoy it in the years I have left.

As most of you know, Aikido (specifically the branch known as Aikikai) is an art where permanent physical damage to an adversary is not approved of, however, the concept of not striking an opponent is still is a little hard for me to reject.

I am looking for recommendations to refer me to a martial art that employs open hand strikes preferably in prearranged combinations that react to specific attacks. I have recently started conditioning my hands by way of iron palm methods and am experiencing very good results. I would now like to augment my Aikido techniques with open hand combinations (preferably in two and three strike combinations) that will end leaving my hands in a position to effect the projections or immobilizations that are part of Aikido.

I would like to stress that it is prearranged combinations I am looking for, rather than combinations that are open to interpretation at the time employed. This concept of prearranged reaction is what I have been used to in my past training, and I would not like to change my way of doing things at this point in time.

Any suggestions?

Regards,

Chris

[Chris Raywood]

Sorry, I should have said in my opening statement that "the concept of not striking an opponent is still is a little hard for me to accept" (not reject).

Thanks again.

Chris

[Chris_McKinley]

It sounds as if you are going to be internally conflicted with the training methods you have now. It would seem that either you will have to reject your prior training in favor of not harming the other person (which is almost patently absurd if you are talking about real combat) or you will have to adapt your current Aikido training to accomodate the damage-causing strikes of your old system and/or anything new you might wish to incorporate.

As to pre-arranged combinations of open-hand strikes, I would suggest this approach will not be particularly realistic the first time you find yourself in a real fight. Still, if you insist on it, you might look into Kenpo if you like lots of pre-arranged sequences.

[BentMonk]

CR - I have to agree with CM. You are at odds with yourself. It is also IMO unrealistic to study any combat art, and train not to cause damage. Fighting is my last resort, and I don't enjoy it, but I can do it if necessary. Unfortunately given the wierd times we live in, the instances where you may have to rely on your training may increase. Some people see older individuals as easy targets. A dangerous assumption yes, but true none the less. I suggest that you look into Xing Yi. I think you will find it compatable with your current mindset. Tai Chi, when taught by a knowledgable sifu is a devastating combat art. I also echo the earlier sentiment of avoiding pre-arranged combinations. You will fight the way you train. There are no pre-arranged combinations in a real fight. I hope I've helped a little. Good luck in your search.

[Mr Punch]

There may be many better suggestions but personally I find the triangular footwork in wing chun, coupled with the angle-cutting circular steps of slightly more advanced wing chun, fit in quite nicely with the irimi principles of aiki and the shorter variants of tenkan respectively.

While I find the idea of training with prearranged combinations pretty annoying and ultimately a futile overlong learning curve and a bad reflex to entrench anyway, and prearranged reactions is frankly, a bloody fantastical idea anywhere near a real situation, the flow you should develop with wing chun which is designed (kind of like chess) to limit the opponent's number of given options to react, at the same time as capitalizing on openings to strike and attack the centre of his structure, whilst receiving and redirecting strong incoming energy... that flow should help your aiki based skills.

Sorry, in a hurry, and trying to keep it simple has ended up in me tying a very long sentence in knots!!!

Plus wing chun has a lot of open hand strikes and energy which will make it very difficult to put your aiki locks on (thus sharpening them up considerably).

Problem: there are as many if not more really bad wing chun schools as there are aiki ones! Plus, it is a surprisingly deep system for one with only five forms (usually) and not too easy to dabble in.

Cheers.

Oh BTW, I don't see with your solid background in the more martial aiki-based arts that aikido's sometimes flakey philosophy will cause you problems. Just take it with a pinch of salt. I know many hardcore and provenly effective aikidoka who have always had that kind of philosophy force-fed them (sorry - should that be "trickled slowly and syrupily down their necks..." ...?! ) and still trained plenty hard enough.

[Chris Raywood]

My thanks to Chris, Bent Monk, and Mat for their advice, and I will investigate your suggestions. In rebuttal, let me make the following points:

I really do not perceive any conflict with my training in Aikido. I (like the philosophy of the art) do not wish to cause any undo harm to anyone when defending myself. Aikido is known for sacrificing the qualities of strength, and relying more on one’s speed and the redirection of the attacker’s movement in order to attain its success. My personal issue is that I do not necessarily believe such qualities can always be successfully deployed (especially as one’s overall training goes more and more towards a beginner’s level). I’d rather have the ability to strike (atemi), and to choose not to use that power than to be in a position needing the capability, and not having the skill available.

Concerning prearranged combinations, my previous training has relied pretty much relied on reacting to a given attack stimulus. Surprisingly, it has been a rather simple formula of blocking the attacking technique, striking to stun, effecting the major technique (as a throw), and applying a pin (or submission). My purpose in the combinations that I am interested in is to apply such strikes to vital areas in rapid succession causing the attacker’s body to go in a desired direction and then to utilize the aikido projection (or immobilization) that is appropriate. I don’t want to be pausing between strikes to analyze the situation. I want quick, decisive movements.

Maybe I wrong to think this way in that the three of you that have responded seem to think my ideas incorrect and/or not practical. Maybe I am wrong, which is the purpose of this thread. However, if prearranged strikes are in the arts of Kenpo, and Xing Yi as suggested, the founders of these arts must have seen a use for them.

Regards,

Chris

[Becca]

Don't think you are wrong, per say, just inexperienced with Chinese Martial arts. Akido and CMA work very well together. But what you percieve as "prearranged combonations" and the distain many show tward them is an example of different ways to atain the same thing. It is the same squable between those who only spar and those who only do forms. They both may become proficient in self-defence. On the other hand, maybe they both will get thier back-sides handed to them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Most arts do have set self-defence combos. Most of those combos can be adapted to use mainly open-hand techiques. If that is what you are after, then go for it.

Visit some local schools. Talk to the Sifu. Let him or her know what you are looking for in your training. They will either be able to help you or give you advise on how to get it. But beware, you will likely get a few who think you are on the wrong path and try to "help" you see it thier way.

Good luck!


Ps: You might have more luck with a family style than with any of the bigger and/or better known styles.

[Brithlor]

You might want to look into Pakua (Bagua), they have more open hand strikes than Xing Yi.

Wing Chun also has open hand strikes as someone offered earlier in this thread...

Just curious, but why are you only looking for OPEN hand strikes..?

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by prearranged attacks, but if you're looking for a martial art that has you do attacks in a rythme with how the opponent most likely will react then you might want to look into Kung fu San soo... or kenpo which is slightly similiar. San Soo utilizes many open hand strikes such as claws, palms, backhands etc... there are also quite a few closed hand strikes too though, mostly the pheonix knuckle and middle knuckle strikes (the medial knuckle).

None of the martial arts I mentioned would be hard on someone in their fifties either... Although the repeated falling and getting back up on throws might be alittle tiresome, but since you do aikido I'm sure you're used to it.

[Chris Raywood]

My thanks again to Becca and Brithlor for their responses, and I’ll reply to some of your comments and questions as each point was made:

Becca, it is a valid point you make concerning sparing and forms that is probably cited in various threads hundreds of times a day. Unfortunately, the arts I have favored over the years have little (if any) sparring. The practicality of my abilities has never been tested on the street in that my experiences with actual fights (done in my teens and early twenties) have long been over. When I started to train in my early thirties I somehow seemed to avoid getting into fights again. On a side note, it seems kind of funny how that also appears to be the case with other MA’s that I have known.

But back to the point, my only laboratory in a sense has been with the various body types of fellow students that I have worked with to direct me as to what works for me, and what does not. I have previously mentioned that my prior training is to REACT. My teachers as well as the methods they developed to train me (various drills, free style line attacks, etc.) have all reinforced the concept that when attacked don’t think, REACT AND MOVE, QUICKLY AND DECISIVLY! This is the way I have trained, and this is what I believe in, and at least in my own theory, works for me.

This is my attraction to strike combinations. I want a series of multiple strikes (since one shot may not get the job done) that can be rapidly deployed, without pause in order to achieve the desired effect. There’s an old jujutsu adage that says that a good technique consists of a marriage of three elements. “Maximum amount of damage, in the least amount of time, with the least amount of effort.”

I know you are right concerning the “help” that a Sifu might offer. There is a Sensei or two that is right with them. I am curious as to what you mean by a family style. Would this be similar to a “system” that is a spin off of an art?

Brithlor, your suggestion of Bagua may have great appeal, since I believe there is a school that teaches the art several miles away from my home. I will be sure to look into it.

My interest in open hand strikes is twofold. First, the shuto (knife hand) and heel palm strikes are already part of my training, and I feel very comfortable with these techniques. Second, and as I mentioned previously posted, I have for the past several months been conditioning my hands along the Iron Palm methods. This is actually my third attempt with such training. My first two were with Brian Gray’s method as well as with a certain “100 day “method that I found in a book purchased quite some time ago. Both methods did not seem to work out well. The injuries suffered on the backhand strike where very uncomfortable, and inhibited training. However, this last attempt has been following the guideline of the book written by Sifu Wing Lam. I can’t begin to tell you of the great results I am experiencing. Such a positive experience made me wonder if such techniques could be encompassed into supplementing my training in Aikido along the lines I desired.

Sorry for the confusion, but as you may have noticed it is not prearranged attacks, but prearranged strikes I am interested in.

Thanks again to all respondents.

Regards,

Chris

[Brithlor]

I have yet to do iron palm training (although I plan to eventually) but I thought that iron palm training, contrary to the name, does NOT consist only of strengthening palm strikes but also closed fisted strikes and for conditioning various parts of the body aswell... Am I mistaken?

Wing Chun probably wouldn't be the best choice if you're looking for a system that implements palm and finger strikes close to what you've done before. The way the energy is employed in palm strikes is generally different than what you've done before and especially finger (bill jee) strikes... those are employed MUCH differently... That said, Kung Fu San Soo DOES do open and knife hand attacks more similarly to what you've done before... however I'm not 100% sure how much finger strikes are utilized in Bagua.

Bagua is a very good choice though... it is perhaps more "combat ready" than Tai Chi and offers a lot of health benifits... it also has enough throws and chin na techinques that you can find places to blend in your aikido throws with, but few enough so that it doesn't feel too redundant with what you've done previously... it still remainsa primarily striking art... Also, the circlular motions will probably lend themselves well to setting up throws...

Don't overlook a san soo school if you happen to have one nearby... It sounds like what you're looking for most because a lot of their moves end in a throw of somesort, so it lends it self even better to aikido than bagua... also, if I understand what you're saying about preagranged moves I think this would be one of the best martial arts for that... however, there is very little sparring (a lot of practicing combonations on your partner ofcourse), but very little training where BOTH people are resisting 100%...

[fragbot]

but for *completely* different reasons that anyone else.

I train xingyi and periodically workout with aiki guys who're friends of mine. One thing xingyi trains better than any other system is down power via its signature fist--piquan or splitting fist. If it's not immediately clear why this is valuable for aiki, you might ask yourself why aikido's oft-ignored sword and jo work is thought to be a crucial element of success. Furthermore, aiki requires connected movement to be effective as does any of the Chinese internals (bagua's a good choice as well, but I think a little more problematic since both arts put so much emphasis on footwork).

[Becca]

I know you are right concerning the “help” that a Sifu might offer. There is a Sensei or two that is right with them. I am curious as to what you mean by a family style. Would this be similar to a “system” that is a spin off of an art?

A family style is a martial arts system that was developed by one family and passed down generation by generation. For example, my style, Pai Lum (or White Dragon in English) is the style of the Pai family.
Family styles are almost always very flexable in cariculum and what you are allowed to do. I have also studied Japanese martial arts. Durring open sparring in the kwoon, I am allowed to use both styles so long as I am careful not to spar at a higher level than my partner.

[Water Dragon]

If you're going to strike somebody with your hand, punch them. Use open hands to slap the bejeezus outta someone. Learn to smack full power with your fingers. Don't just slap the face. You can slap the neck, kidneys, liver, nutz. Be creative.

Above all, don't slap like a byatch. Learn proper body mechanics and practice.