Long form vs short forms

[Ma_Xu_Zha]

Based on what i have experienced through the years of taiji training i have come up to conclusions that short forms are absolutley useless for development of real gong fu. the grandmasters all practiced long forms and repeatedly practiced long forms for many decades of there training.

short forms are lacking of the complete sets and are just for stimulating the meridans for health while the longer forms begin to train the extraordinary power channels used in gong fu.

that is why i practice a few sets of long form and really feel it in my legs afterwards.

[bodhitree]

I often just practice short forms for the gongfu. I often just grasp the sparrows tail a number of times in a row, train the jins.

however long is good also. They both have their place.

[[Censored]]

And the greatest indication of "real gong fu" is your ability to perform long sets. What an interesting coincidence!

[denali]

Train gong over taolu!

The length of the form has jack squat to do with developing skill.

I usually don't post too often.. but I think this is important.

If you want to talk about how past masters trained, it was simply not just form practice. Any good master has spent plenty of time repeating even one movement over and over, day after day. This is gong.

[SevenStar]

well said.

[bamboo_ leaf]

One movement done correctly is worth more then one thousand done incorrectly, of course it might take one thousand tries to get the one movement right.

Short forms, are by there nature condensed versions of something longer. If your looking for movement the longer ones might have more varied movements. If you’re looking for principles then I think the shorter ones should be enough.

It depends on your view point. The from is a tool to help you get to a place not the place itself.

[Syd]

There are very few repeats in the Mien Chuan sets but multiple repeats in the Yang Cheng Fu 108. The reason is that one is for combat and the other is for internal organ health and healing on the physical and spiritual levels.

I agree that for health, the short forms are sorely lacking. For combat applications? well if they have been boiled down to essence then perhaps it's not so bad, but there is also a jiben gong/raison d'etre involved in long set work. Forms were only made short to make it easier for people with no patience or time to learn them, apart from that, they have no value IMHO.

[[Censored]]

You got it backwards dude. Short forms came first. Long forms were created because it's easy to forget one of a dozen short ones.

You'd be better off to state "I am proud of my long forms" and just leave it at that.

[Syd]

I beg to differ dude!... I'll stand by my statement and leave it just like you found it, kay?

If you are refering to the original 13 postures then sure, they were built upon well after the fact. What comes down from The Yangs is not what I would call short form.

[ngokfei]

Both long and short forms have there place.

Short forms today are great when teaching in a commercial ($$$) school. Thats why there exist so many different short sets in Chen now. Each has created there own. I believe there are four 38 movement sets now.

I teach a short 10 & 16 movement Wu before learning the Medium length and long length forms. (has served me great in teaching "Short" term beginning students. At least they've finsihed something before they quit.

Yep right on the head. The original sets were very short. And yes there are benefits in doing both short and long sets. (also practice HG and history has it that WFH knew over 12 hand sets and was able to combine them to create the core 3 sets we have today.

but for direct fighting skills I like short forms and lots of individual technique repetitions alone and with a partner.

[Thundermudd]

I'm in agreement that both long and short have their place.
I also believe that their is more to training in an internal system than just the forms themselves. You need to break that form down and do the individual peices until you have 'got them'.
Bamboo said something very proper here, "One movement done correctly is worth more then one thousand done incorrectly, of course it might take one thousand tries to get the one movement right."
My main thing here is that you must go beyond the external shell of the form - you need to learn what each movement means and how it is done properly with true internal power. This is vital to getting it. Just doing the form - no matter how long or short - is worthless unless you know how to train the movements.

[Syd]

There is an extremely important Qigong element in the long forms, thats comes only through the practice of the long forms. It's the difference between standing qigong for 5 mins and 30 mins.

As far as applications go and breaking down the form and getting into applications, sure, who can argue with the obvious? It is the enormous health benefits that are diminished by way of the shortened forms.

[Thundermudd]

Why can't you just do a short form over and over againg without stopping?
Benefits might not be as great as a long form simply due to less variations in movement; but for many of the folks that study Taiji for health and not for martial capability - doing anything besides sitting on their a$$ is better.

[backbreaker]

I think doing single movements could be good at first , but if you want to go high-level , I would guess you need both long forms to develop all the combinations of energies and fighting techniques together . I only practice the beginning of cannon fist because I don't know all of it , and it's still good to do the part I know.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

It has been my understanding that the repetitions in the long form were to emphasize that movement's importance.. Long form or short, it is the intentions of the student that will determine the usefulness.. a corretly motivated student will find the obvious and the subtle benefits in the lessons being taught.. Whichever is "better" is truly a matter of preference.. repetitions of a short form may be equally as beneficial as the longer version, but either, done incorrectly or with poor attitude, will do little but fill some time... The short form has satisfied my needs many times when time was at a premium, it has merit when there is simply insufficient time to go through my normal 2 hour session.. (business trips, etc...) Most of the short forms i am familiar with have good principle, good application, and are far better than no form at all..

Be well...