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Thread: Historical Fencing

  1. #121
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    Ap, will do...don't anyone buy the Panasonic DV-203.


    yenhoi, thanks. just wondering, would like to catch up with Kevin if he was still in the Charlotte area.

    ya'll have a good weekend.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  2. #122
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    Originally posted by apoweyn
    Inosanto's book on FMA has a nice section on some of his teachers as well.

    So Ky Fi, Gene Ching, Fatherdog...

    Do fencers (either competitive or traditional) have the sort of signature sequences that Oso brought up?
    I'm not sure I completely understand the "signature sequences"---I'm thinking these are complex attack patterns that depend on an anticipated defensive response pattern from the opponent?

    Ive only been fencing about 2 years, but from my experience I would say it's not used to that degree. As far as complex patterns of attack, I think in fencing they're sometimes referred to as "intentions". For instance, if I'm just planning on hitting the guy with my lunge, then that's a "first intention" attack. If I lunge, plan on him parrying, and then plan to disengage under his parry and hit, then that's a "second intention" attack. And likewise, you can get up to 3rd, 4th and 5th intention attacks, with all kinds of complex moves. It's kind of like chess, and it is good to be able to keep mentally ahead of your opponent, but also, the more complex your premeditated attacks are, the greater the chance that things won't go as you planned. The game is so fast, people can all react slightly differently, your timing or his timing might not be what you expected---there's just so many variables that it's impossible to predict the exchanges with complete accuracy. Don't quote me on this, but I believe I read that Aldo Nadi (considered the best fencer of the 20th century) said that he usually always hit with no more than 2 or 3 intentions.

    Of course everybody has favorite moves or combos or techniques that work better for them, but the more you use something, the more your opponents can recognize it and counter it. I fence at kind of a small club, and I fence a lot of the same people over and over. I know that any new pattern that I come up with that's effective has a lifespan of about half an hour . I think having a lot of techniques and combos that you're comfortable with and to be able to use those unpredictably works well in sport fencing.
    "Without tradition, art is a flock of sheep without a shepherd; without innovation it is a corpse." --Sir Winston Churchill

  3. #123
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    They are not attack or defense patterns, just patterns for sensitivity and other attributes. Getting used to things flying at you from different angles.

    After you have a handle on these dead patterns, you learn alive patterns, like two-man sets sorta. Counter for counter drills... I attack and you counter, then I counter your counter, and you counter that...

    strike!

  4. #124
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    fencing is very kick, id do it if there was some avalible
    cos it doent have the stressful stuff asian martial arts sometimes have
    and its done sportively and its clearly only for sport, fun
    Volcano has removed himself from this realm
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  5. #125
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    the more complex your premeditated attacks are, the greater the chance that things won't go as you planned. The game is so fast, people can all react slightly differently, your timing or his timing might not be what you expected---there's just so many variables that it's impossible to predict the exchanges with complete accuracy.
    beautiful, just beautiful.

    true for any of this stuff we expound upon.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  6. #126
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    Samurai showdownIII+, Bushido Blade, Soul of the Samurai could help your fencing comprehension.

    Samurai Showdown III at least has a fencer French Femme Rose. Her guards and attacks might be insightful to you apoweyn.

    Bushido Blade has rapier. And the different characters have different strengths and can move the blade more or less readily based at least on their build (strength). The have three guard levels and three general attack levels from each guard. Seeing the positions and steppings in and from these might be insightful to you. Also seeing a general the recoverytime for certain strokes after certain strokes-- shifting guard level might be a key to finding combinations in your fencing.

    Soul of the Samurai is for timing cut range covered and recovery based on strength/blade weight ratios.

    Thought notes:If their hand is fore of theirlead foot they will poke without necessarily stepping.

    when they shift their torso back they might be preparing to attack. GO forward with a direct attack (perhaps partial stabwithdraw then full thrust (or a Lunge).

    When thestep back even to go forward two steps their weight likely shifts Forward. Here Lunge.

    Watch the body shaow and the feet more than the person. Act by these what you can. End Though notes of No_Know here.~
    There are four lights...¼ impulse...all donations can be sent at PayPal.com to qumpreyndweth@juno.com; vurecords.com

  7. #127
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    Okay, so fencing is pretty much as I figured. Not predetermined sequences, per say. Tactics, favoured combos, etc. Just like any other martial art.

    I asked because I'd read a book in which the fencing master was working on creating the perfect sequence. Didn't make much sense to me. And it was a work of fiction, after all, but thought I'd ask all the same.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  8. #128
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    signature sequences

    Traditional fencing did have something called "the universal parry." This was a so-called secret technique, kept 'en familia' at a given salle d'armes, and sold to fops who had the unfortunate fate of having to learn to fencing rather quickly prior to an upcoming duel. Typically, this was a combo, not unlike a boxing combo, a few strong techniques strung together that were easy-to-learn. And some schools did have rather ornate patterns. Probably the most ornate was a Spanish school which emlyed complex footwork patterns in a 'mystic circle' and even went so far as to calcuate astrological factors. It was very successful school during it's heyday, but eventually died out because it was too complex.

    BTW, did someone mention Presas?
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  9. #129
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    The problem with Bushido Blade was that it was TOO technically correct (not saying it was 100%) for a video game. I tried to break it out at a fight video game party (don't say it!!!) but Soul Caliber had just come out and BB was just plain boring next to all that.



    Probably the most ornate was a Spanish school which emlyed complex footwork patterns in a 'mystic circle' and even went so far as to calcuate astrological factors. It was very successful school during it's heyday, but eventually died out because it was too complex.
    heh, sounds like some kung fu to me

    and let me know when those tapes hit the discount section.
    it's a good deal for all those tapes but still $200+.

    btw, from the couple I've seen, they are average to above average for a martial arts tape. better than most out there.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  10. #130
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    This thread is the reason why I signed up here! lol...


    I used to fence a bit...

    When I was at Tennessee Tech, there were a few of us who founded a fencing club. A couple of the guys were from Knoxville, and had fenced with the folks at UT. One of them was also in SCA, so he drug a couple of buddies into it, too. They also worked at the radio station on campus, and so a couple of others in the radio station joined in, too.

    There was an english professor who was an avid fencer, used to be competitive, so he jumped in to help us get started, being our faculty advisor and really helped us get a good solid foundation.

    After doing it for a year, we had it added as a PE class. The professor was slick, tho', he had two sections created, one that was the general glass, and a second closed section in which the original ones of us were admitted for a bit more advanced work. Things really progressed well.

    We actually started hosting tournaments with some of the other colleges in the southeast.... Vanderbilt, UT, Baylor... we also organized some workshops, even had our professor's fencing instructor, Charles Selberg, come out and do a pretty intensive workshop for us.

    Although we all started with foil, we all pretty much had an interest in being 3-weapon fencers. (foil, epee, sabre)

    Sabre has the most cross-over, given that you were slashing with the blade, whereas foil and epee are stabbing weapons.

    The important thing about fencing, what determines whether or not you're going to be competent and competitive or not, is footwork. The first couple of weeks, it's nothing but very repetitive footwork drills. Getting into a fencing stance, and practicing the step... forward and backward.

    Unlike reality, or most other styles, competitive fencing is odd in that you stay on a strip, instead of being in a ring of some sort.

    Having had a bit of background in kickboxing, where I'd been taught to dominate the center of a ring, really helped in fencing where you want to dominate the strip. You want to control the pace of the bout. Sure, you might need to retreat if they're pushing the attack, but, you want to do a stop, and regain ROW.

    Also, coming from a kung-fu style, where I had this automatic horse stance position helped a lot. The foot arrangement is different, but the idea of getting your footing wide and your center of gravity low is key.

    Unlike in a ring, where you stalk each other, on the strip you keep your forward foot forward and pointing ahead at your opponent, and your rear foot turned at 90 degrees. You step forward wit hthe lead foot, then bring the rear foot up to regain your stance. If you retreat, put your rear foot back then slide your forward foot back to regain the stance.

    Returning to kung-fu now after years of a hiatus, I'm finding that I'm bringing the fencing back with me. Instead of being so willing to let the other person want to circle, I have a tendency to either advance in a hard line, or feignt to get them to parry/attack the way I want them to so I could then come at it the way I want to... to get them to commit to the attack that I am already prepared to control.

    And, as someone mentioned above, you don;t think too far in advance. You would ideally have a very well timed lunge, or a balestra accompanyied with a beat followed by said lunge. Or, I usually did better getting them to lunge into me where I'd execute a stop and they'd hang themselves on it. Some people like the fleche, where you bolt past the opponent and hit them on the run. Works great if they don't see it coming... one particular tournament, someone from another school was kickin' butt pretty well with it, and couldn't get past me, though... because I'm a lefty. Most lefties fence right-handed, and don't bother to try to find left-handed equipment. So, most people don't know how to fence against someone left-handed.... whereas everyone I fence is right-handed, I'm used to everyone else... So, his fleche kept putting him right onto my blade.


    Anyway.... my point was, while it's different from other systems, given that it's a sport-form of a weapon-art, there's still a lot that can be correlated into other systems.

    Ya know, I'm gonna have to find some people to fence with again now....



    -L

  11. #131
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    Originally posted by LNBright
    This thread is the reason why I signed up here! lol...
    Well then, first things first. Thanks for joining up and laying some info on me. I appreciate that.

    There was an english professor who was an avid fencer, used to be competitive, so he jumped in to help us get started, being our faculty advisor and really helped us get a good solid foundation.
    When I fenced briefly in college, one of the history professors would periodically come by and school the lot of us too. That's one of the interesting things to me about it. The attributes that would be really useful empty handed (like size, despite what people like to think) aren't necessarily as valuable with a weapon. This guy, twice our age, would beat one guy after another. Because he wasn't having to do that much. The movements are tight enough that he wasn't expending that much energy.

    After doing it for a year, we had it added as a PE class. The professor was slick, tho', he had two sections created, one that was the general glass, and a second closed section in which the original ones of us were admitted for a bit more advanced work. Things really progressed well.

    We actually started hosting tournaments with some of the other colleges in the southeast.... Vanderbilt, UT, Baylor... we also organized some workshops, even had our professor's fencing instructor, Charles Selberg, come out and do a pretty intensive workshop for us.
    Nice!

    Although we all started with foil, we all pretty much had an interest in being 3-weapon fencers. (foil, epee, sabre)

    Sabre has the most cross-over, given that you were slashing with the blade, whereas foil and epee are stabbing weapons.
    That's why I always liked sabre, yeah. But I'm developing a real appreciation for the subtleties you have to master to operate in as strict a framework as foil fencing.

    The important thing about fencing, what determines whether or not you're going to be competent and competitive or not, is footwork.
    Amen. I love footwork of any sort these days.

    Having had a bit of background in kickboxing, where I'd been taught to dominate the center of a ring, really helped in fencing where you want to dominate the strip. You want to control the pace of the bout. Sure, you might need to retreat if they're pushing the attack, but, you want to do a stop, and regain ROW.
    You hit on two things that have struck me about fencing so far. And they're both related to control. How much control you can assert over your opponent by 1) your position on the strip and 2) the position of your weapon. Drawing (leaving an opening for the opponent to capitalize on and then countering when he tries) was familiar to me before I started fencing. (Of course, it was familiar from JKD, who nicked it from fencing, so "hakuna matata.") But I've not seen that concept elaborated on as much as it is in fencing.

    And your position on the strip. The good fencers will make you chase them, make you back pedal, make you stand your ground, whatever serves their purpose. Of course, good practitioners of any art will have that sort of control over their opponent. I'm not suggesting that fencing is better. Only that their are valuable skills and ideas to be gleaned.

    Returning to kung-fu now after years of a hiatus, I'm finding that I'm bringing the fencing back with me. Instead of being so willing to let the other person want to circle, I have a tendency to either advance in a hard line, or feignt to get them to parry/attack the way I want them to so I could then come at it the way I want to... to get them to commit to the attack that I am already prepared to control.
    That's another form of what I referred to in the above paragraph. Very cool.

    Anyway.... my point was, while it's different from other systems, given that it's a sport-form of a weapon-art, there's still a lot that can be correlated into other systems.
    Couldn't agree more.

    Ya know, I'm gonna have to find some people to fence with again now....
    I'm headed in to practice tonight, actually. Yay Wednesday.


    Stuart B.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  12. #132
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    Savate anyone?

    I'm surprised that this thread hasn't mentioned Savate yet. Anyone got any research there? There's supposed to be a local Savate teacher in this area that people here have been wanting me to check out, but I haven't had the time.
    Gene Ching
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  13. #133
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    Re: Savate anyone?

    Originally posted by GeneChing
    I'm surprised that this thread hasn't mentioned Savate yet. Anyone got any research there? There's supposed to be a local Savate teacher in this area that people here have been wanting me to check out, but I haven't had the time.
    Wow. That's odd. I was just in the stairwell thinking that very same thing. I've heard a savate teacher refer to the muay thai-style round kick as a sabre kick. And that savate kicking theory is based heavily on fencing. Something about the kicking leg staying in a tight area in front much like the sword does.

    Where's Crimson Phoenix when ya need him?!
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  14. #134
    "hey pal, you wanna do the dance of destruction with the belle of the ball, just say the word." -apoweyn

  15. #135
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    Interesting read!

    So Daws and I went fencing last night. And my calves and quads are killing me. It's no secret that I'm out of shape right now. So we'll start there. But I remember our teacher mentioning a way to recover from the lunge position to en garde without constantly pushing yourself up with your lead leg.

    I know you can draw the rear leg in to recover (and not loose ground doing it). Any other methods?


    Stuart B.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

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