Historical Fencing

[yenhoi]

No, the SCA people.

I dunno, after christmas Im going to go play with their group one day and then a couple of them are going to then come and play with my group.

Shin kick!

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by Ky-Fi
I would mostly echo what joedoe said, but I think you have to do more than just touch his blade---you have to direct it out of line from your target area to legally negate his attack. Just touching his blade wouldn't be enough, as I understand it, if he still subsequently hits his target with the motions of the original attack. Gene?

Ah. Alright. That makes sense actually.

Yep, that's exactly what you want to do from an offensive standpoint. And when you're inexperienced and face a good fencer, he can sometimes KEEP evading your parries with tiny little half-circles, while you flail around helplessly with bigger and bigger, horrendously ugly, windshield-wiper type parries until he finally decides to put you out of your misery . I've had that done to me!

LOL at the ring of truth to this. Windshield wiper parries.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by LNBright
Exactly..... There were times when you can, um, "counter-parry", ie, essentially beat back against their attempt to parry your blade... if you keep your blade in line, you maintain right-of-way....

I think I'll need closer observation than we've been getting so far before I can learn that. I'm still not completely clear on when I have right of way and when I don't. Normally, it's not an issue. One person scores. The other doesn't. But when we get some more coaching, I'm sure I'll get a better sense of that.

I'm hoping to do a little video the next time we go as well. So perhaps you gang will be able to give some feedback.


Stuart B.

[GeneChing]

...all that SCA talk made me lose interest.

As for right of way, if memory serves, right of way is defined as the extending arm with the point on target. That was a big shift a few years back, extending vs. extended. I've lost track of what the current stance on it might be. Now if someone can keep the point on target - maintain the threat - and evade your attempt to break right of way, well, that's pretty good. You're probably too wild with your beats or attempts to take the blade. All you have to do to remove right of way is to break that line, and usually, a light beat is all you need.

Now for a fencing lesson: there are very strict terms for fencing and it's movements. It's an extremely elgant system of combat - a real science, very mathmatical. So be very careful about banding around terms, because you're probably wrong. You can't counter-parry without a parry and a beat is not necessarily a parry. A parry is a defensive action. A beat is a percussive strike to the blade. So you can parry with a beat, but you can also use a beat to attack the blade, initiate an action. This gets really complex - most people are used to just thinking in terms of attack/defence or attack/counterattack. But fencing actually takes this a lot further with attack/counterattack/countertime/feint in time/arrest in countertime. This stuff is really high level theory - you really need to understand fencing time to discuss it. I was working on an article about using fencing theory to describe martial arts - which is a lot of the key to Bruce Lee's JKD - but I got too bogged down in trying to convey the theory. It's very complex and hard to describe effectively. Unfortunately, most JKD people don't really understand it and misuse it. In my readings of Lee, I believe he had a descent grasp of it, but keep in mind that most of his JKD writings were posthumous publication of his notes, so I don't think he fleshed it all out completely. He didn't get the chance. That being said, there are some serious problems using fencing theory to describe martial arts since martial arts has more variables. Most of the JKD people get it all wrong, but then again, a strong argument could be made for them redefining the terms to meet their needs. My argument was that if you look at the roots, if you look at fencing, it doesn't really work.

[LNBright]

Originally posted by GeneChing
...all that SCA talk made me lose interest.

lol..... A LONG time ago, I almost got interested in SCA, but, it was a goofy thing at the time, felt too tied to D&D....

When I was fencing, some of the people I fenced with were involved with SCA, and it was different: they took it more seriously, as far as the art and crafts go, yet took it much more lightly, it was just a fun hobby.... they were "normal" by any other measure, whereas the other folks I had known were so one-dimensional, that SCA WAS their life, and really didn't have a good footing in reality. Evindently, it can range over a broad spectrum....

Originally posted by GeneChing
Now for a fencing lesson: there are very strict terms for fencing and it's movements. It's an extremely elgant system of combat - a real science, very mathmatical. So be very careful about banding around terms, because you're probably wrong.

Wow, Gene, you are versatile, aren't ya?

Seriously, it's been 7 years since I've worn my knickers and crossed blades with someone, and even then at the height of my skill, I still never managed to letter, though if I had pushed a little harder I might have picked up an "E".... a second child arriving took priority, though.... Anyway....

You're absolutely right, ther terminology IS very well defined. I know I'm guilty of being sloppy in phrasing here, realizing that I was relating it to non-fencing. I'll watch my p's and q's better....



FWIW, if anyone is interested, I'd HIGHLY recommend a book called "Foil" by Charles Selberg.... Charles is the fellow we had fly in to do our seminar, and he is REALLY talented as an instructor. If anyone is around Eugene, Oregon, and he's still teaching these days, I'd highly recommend seeing what you can learn from him. There are some good classic texts by Aldo Nadi, too, but Charles' book is more graspable. (okay, poor grammar, I should have said " ... the presentation of the contents within Charles' book make the concepts more easily understandable" or some such derivation....lol.....)


Speaking of, where I have I put that book? Hmmm..... I've moved 4 times since I last read it.... it's got to be in a box in the spare bedroom.... (haven't unpacked *that* bunch, given that we know we're going to move again once the house is built, lol...)



-L

[apoweyn]

So, my wife and I are hitting the antique shops in Ellicott City this past weekend. And I wander into a used bookshop. And score myself an original printing of Aldo Nadi's On Fencing. For (based on what I've read on the internet) a very reasonable price at that.

Anyone read this?

[LNBright]

I checked it out of the college library 10 years ago..... I recall liking it, but, I couldn't tell you much about it now, not having read it since.....



I ought to put it on my "to acquire a copy" list.......






-L

[apoweyn]

Well, they've recently done a reprint. I daresay you can pick it up at the bookstore now. I was just pleased with finding an original copy.

[No_Know]

"But I remember our teacher mentioning a way to recover from the lunge position to en garde without constantly pushing yourself up with your lead leg.

I know you can draw the rear leg in to recover (and not loose ground doing it). Any other methods?"

lunge; feet remaining (except your rear foot which must be put bottom to the ground (basically in place, forward placements only [fortification]); shift weight back (yin/yang the knees) slightly; anchor the front foot--press firmly so as to pull the rear foot up (close to under you): you are now in a close to cat stance stance, not lost ground and recovered.~

When you lunge perhaps a less extended lag leg? As you land the front foot, then drag the rear foot closer (bending of the rear knee; bringing in and down some), while keeping the spreadness of a lunge.

For this method, when shifting weight back slightly, rotate the palm down, inward, and then upward, facing-ish you. draw-up the rear (leg/foot). Bring your hip up with the leg...hipnot Ever leaving that centerline on the ground might improve comfort and ease of maintaining and delivering your techniques (fencing like in the videos you recently put-up).

Deflect with the hilt. Move the hilt close to your heart (even though away from your body) [Let your hilt be centered at your heart; the Other center for your hilt is your waist]; lower the hilt while keeping the blade up. Tilt the blade to the left (when sword is in right hand) to deflect when moving/carrying the hilt.

When you deflect to the left keep your swords met; reposition your sword tip to the rightside on their body. Commit to your sting. (When you block to the left their body area opens (theoretically)when striking with commitment to their sword side even being deflected your are going forward having to clear person's Whole body to have you miss.

Analysis and theories from a No_Know.

[GeneChing]

If you're looking for fencing books, check out my old place of employ - American Fencers Supply. Speaking of Selberg's book, Foil, you can see my old maestro, the late Michael D'Saro, as well as his ex-wife and fellow former Olympiad, Gay. I trained under both of them when I was an NCAA fencer. Speaking of Aldo Nadi, I trained under a direct student of his, Maitre William Gaugler, when I was working on my Provost at Arms. Gaugler has been the one responsible for bringing Nadi's works back into print, as well as publishing a lot of other titles that you'll find listed at American Fencers Supply. If you contact AFS, ask for the Yeti and tell him Gene sent you.

[apoweyn]

To see how we're coming along:

www.apoweyn.net/martialarts/index.htm

Six fencing videos on the bottom right.

[blooming lotus]

just found this thread...very cool...have actually been condiosering picking up some fencing myself, thought that it may help stance training and lunging alah tai ji??? Chuck Noris gives fencing huge wraps in terms of assisting timing.also about to get into light and heavy swordery??? not sold...but definately considering

[No_Know]

fencing01 clip:

"L" stance lean on the instep for the lunge. You seemedeto be anxious, waiting for the right time to attack and waiting for his attack.

fencing02 clip:

Backed him right on up. Hilt to the front,a stuttered promise of attack delivered towards the end of the line. Keep this technique in mind one might think. Small centerline refutes to the probing blade might make them hesitate or rethink thatset-up for their attack.

fencing03 clip:

I got that you were nervous, and lost faith in your learning or database [Humorism:in reality, a fencer fencing will revert to kickboxing (Savate(more culturally appropriate)). Your stance is wide you want mobility, balance is good, confidence can get you the touch.

Look at the row one above yours study how the person in black is nearly standing or slight stance. You might have quicker movement~ if you have less distance over which to shift.
Person's body is forward yours is divided leaning the top part forward--the illusion of weight forward but actually weight back. Good for standing your ground fencing, but must be dropped to move and before moving. shoulders, ribcage hips--an straight upright column.~

It's as if your cool calculating I'm going to get this technique in...it goes...Here! went to oh yeah? Oh Yeah? watch me...vik cxu fihf iy utd ut fud yd u...Like he challenged you to be good by saying you were not as good as you thought, then insulted or offended youkept trying to impress him focusing on an I'll show you touch and not in an appropriate time frame so you didn't concernyourself with the footwork anymore at least.

fencing04 clip:

Prepare, small approach(es), intimidate, stand your ground. Impressive [Note: throughout this series was enjoyable at least in part because I got to see the thinking. and you were doing what you'd gotten from class trying to be a good student and trying to conquer yourself in that you did not know what to expect but you probablly had what it took to meet it. And it was a pleasure scared. and I thought you did well. at least middle of the class if not amoung-top-rung. Certainly, other than bottom-lister].

fencing05 clip:

You kept your frame and moove from the jnees. Wonderful. I'd seen tis in at least another of the previous clips but was overcome to mention another aspect initially it seems.
Done in 01, (the end of 02), not at all~ in 03, 04.

fencing06 clip:

That is a fine portrait of a fencer you portray. Some where you pickedup to have your feet more under you and the move within the line (In at least one of your earlier clips you would at least your front foot be on the right-hand side of the line). Beautiful!

Of those shown you and your partner seemed top of the class with the next set on the opposite end under you (both). Except for you and the absolute new person~ the others had movie fencing hot-shot tendencies. You seemed refine anddignified in your actions and moves/techniques. It was calmness that set people apart. ~

I liked these as well as your sparring and stick fighting clips. Good going.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by No_Know
fencing01 clip:

"L" stance lean on the instep for the lunge. You seemedeto be anxious, waiting for the right time to attack and waiting for his attack.

Yeah. That was the previous week to the other clips. And I wasn't very pleased with it. I feel like I wasn't really grasping (or using) the technical specifics of fencing. I mean, my footwork is okay. But I wasn't accounting for things like extending the sword before moving the feet into the lunge, etc. Things that are specific to fencing.

And I wasn't aggressive enough. But those two go hand in hand. Confidence --> aggressiveness.

fencing02 clip:

Backed him right on up. Hilt to the front,a stuttered promise of attack delivered towards the end of the line. Keep this technique in mind one might think. Small centerline refutes to the probing blade might make them hesitate or rethink thatset-up for their attack.

Aggressiveness is getting better. I'm concentrating on extending the sword rather than closing distance first and then attacking with the sword. Big mistake in fencing. A lot of the time, a more experienced fencer can stab me before I feel like I've moved into range. I'd know better if I extended first (and I earn right of way that way).

fencing03 clip:

I got that you were nervous, and lost faith in your learning or database [Humorism:in reality, a fencer fencing will revert to kickboxing (Savate(more culturally appropriate)). Your stance is wide you want mobility, balance is good, confidence can get you the touch.

Interestingly, savate is said to be based on fencing theory.

Look at the row one above yours study how the person in black is nearly standing or slight stance. You might have quicker movement~ if you have less distance over which to shift.
Person's body is forward yours is divided leaning the top part forward--the illusion of weight forward but actually weight back. Good for standing your ground fencing, but must be dropped to move and before moving. shoulders, ribcage hips--an straight upright column.~

Yeah, I'm still working on that sort of thing. My first reaction is always retreating footwork. So it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if my resting stance was oriented that way. I spent some time that night concentrating on standing my ground, parrying, and riposte (countering).

It's as if your cool calculating I'm going to get this technique in...it goes...Here! went to oh yeah? Oh Yeah? watch me...vik cxu fihf iy utd ut fud yd u...Like he challenged you to be good by saying you were not as good as you thought, then insulted or offended youkept trying to impress him focusing on an I'll show you touch and not in an appropriate time frame so you didn't concernyourself with the footwork anymore at least.

Meh. Daws and I have been friends for 20+ years. I want him to succeed as much as I want me to succeed. So no, I wasn't insulted or offended. But you're right in a sense. I probably was concentrating too hard on landing one particular thing. My bread and butter technique is to feint to the inside, dip under his blade when he goes to parry, and score on the outside. Or vice versa.

It's a good technique. Hell, every point I scored in these clips was that same technique. But searching for it isn't a good thing. Need to mix it up first of all. But more importantly in the long run, I need to learn how to 'read' fencing, so that I take what's there rather than trying to hammer my own ideas in there.

fencing04 clip:

Prepare, small approach(es), intimidate, stand your ground. Impressive [Note: throughout this series was enjoyable at least in part because I got to see the thinking. and you were doing what you'd gotten from class trying to be a good student and trying to conquer yourself in that you did not know what to expect but you probablly had what it took to meet it. And it was a pleasure scared. and I thought you did well. at least middle of the class if not amoung-top-rung. Certainly, other than bottom-lister].

Yeah, clip 4 is going on my highlight video. [grin] Seriously, that's the one where I clearly felt in control. I scored two hits using that very same technique again. And that's all well and good. Not noteworthy because I scored that technique. Only because I felt in control of the pacing, timing, etc. Then, when Daws rushed in, I stood my ground, parried, and got him to run straight into my sword. Very pleased with that one.

As for being middle of the class, I don't know. Mostly I've been fencing with Daws and Mike, who both have slightly less experience than me. (I fenced a little in college and have done lots of weapons work in eskrima, whereas Daws did a little taekwondo and that's about it. Mike... Well, this is virtually Mike's first athletic pursuit ever.) All that is to say that my relative ranking probably shouldn't be determined from these clips. We only record our bouts together rather than imposing on the regular team members. Maybe when we're feeling more like fixtures there...

I do okay against the more experienced guys as long as my conditioning holds out. And I'm genuinely feeling like I'm getting better every practice. So who knows. What I do know is that there are plenty of people there who could still trade me for cigarettes if they wanted to.

fencing05 clip:

You kept your frame and moove from the jnees. Wonderful. I'd seen tis in at least another of the previous clips but was overcome to mention another aspect initially it seems.
Done in 01, (the end of 02), not at all~ in 03, 04.

[heavy sigh]

I'm actually not in clips 5 and 6. That's Mike. I'm the cameraman (though I hate to admit that in clip 5). But I'll pass the compliments along to Mike.

Mike's first exposure to swordplay was about a year ago through stage combat for a production of Sir Gawaine (in which he played Sir Gawaine). As a result, he looks very sharp. I think Daws still has a slightly better grip on the technical subtleties and the competitive mindset. But Mike's got the aesthetic down. And as he develops more of an instinct for fighting, he's going to be a menace.

fencing06 clip:

That is a fine portrait of a fencer you portray. Some where you pickedup to have your feet more under you and the move within the line (In at least one of your earlier clips you would at least your front foot be on the right-hand side of the line). Beautiful!

Again, not me. Mike. You're very astute though, No_Know. My foot does indeed go to the right of the line a lot. It's from the triangular footwork of eskrima. To zone off the line. Another fencer commented on it later that same night. He seemed to think it was fine. As long, obviously, as it didn't send too far off the line (since fencing bouts are done on a line and perhaps even a platform).

Of those shown you and your partner seemed top of the class with the next set on the opposite end under you (both). Except for you and the absolute new person~ the others had movie fencing hot-shot tendencies. You seemed refine anddignified in your actions and moves/techniques. It was calmness that set people apart. ~

Mike has good poise. But (not to bad mouth him), he's the least experienced guy in the room. The other guys may look like hotshots, but I can promise you that they'd score on Mike (or me) a lot more often than the other way around. And at the end of the day, getting run through with the sword is what counts.

I agree, though, that if Mike can maintain that sense of poise against good fencers, he's going to be a real joy to watch. Stylistically, he already is. I really dig clip 6 just for the interplay between him and Daws in the middle.

I liked these as well as your sparring and stick fighting clips. Good going.

Cheers. And thanks for the insights, No_Know. As usual, you've got a good eye for technical detail.


Stuart B.

[apoweyn]

Originally posted by blooming lotus
just found this thread...very cool...have actually been condiosering picking up some fencing myself, thought that it may help stance training and lunging alah tai ji??? Chuck Noris gives fencing huge wraps in terms of assisting timing.also about to get into light and heavy swordery??? not sold...but definately considering

What I find interesting is actually fighting with a blade. Granted it's not sharpened. But in martial arts, sword training very often consists of sword forms. Yeah, you've got kendo and fencing and even CMA gim fencing nowadays. And those give you a really clear appreciation of the 'realities' of sword fighting.

I sparred stick for years. And while we always said 'it translates to the sword', the truth is that there are some glaring differences between the two. And while it's good to recognize and capitalize on the common ground, it's also good to get some experience of the important differences.

Case in point: My footwork. I tend to move first and then attack with the weapon. With a stick, that would make sense. Get into position and then attack. I couldn't very well put my stick out and then step into position and expect that to do any sort of appreciable damage. But with a sword, I can and should do that. Put the sword out and lunge into position. The requirements to do damage with one vs. the other are completely different. With an impact weapon, it's a good idea to keep it ****ed (apparently, I should have said 'chambered' rather than 'c0cked') and then throw it. With the sword, when I do that, the other guy has run me through long before I'm in what I think is a viable position.


Stuart B.