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Thread: Historical Fencing

  1. #106
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    They each didnt, but there were 'patterns' attributed to familys and villages and islands just like in CMA Old China. When you study some patterns you notice they match up with themselves and others, and some patterns dont here or there. Some seem to be designed to defeat people locked into other patterns. I like kob-kob and pai-pai motions the best.

    With watik, you still crash through anthing you touch down the line even if its just with the tip. Its all about the footwork and which ankle you twist with which arm.

    Abanicos... I use them to transition between power strikes, into or out of the different ranges, specially into puno strikes and throws. Disarms seem to pop out of abanico motions more often then most others, but I havent found much other empty hand use.


    strike!

  2. #107
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    Originally posted by Oso
    ok, so a witik would be a flick in any direction while the abanico is rotating around the forearm centerline perpendicularly. never heard the term witik in the Presas camp. but, I do love some abanico action.
    Yeah, exactly. Nice description of abaniko, by the way. I'm not really surprised that you hadn't heard the term. My teachers used witik instead of abaniko frequently. And we had to guess by context which they meant. *shrug* Peculiar, isn't it.

    so, bust this myth for me, I was told that each of the old tyme escrimadors would have their signature sequence that was how they won all their matches. We were taught Remy's, and I saw Remy demo it once. I still flail around with it regularly because myth or no, i think it's a pretty decent combination.
    I can only bust that myth in so far that I've never heard it before. Granted, my teachers were a generation or two down from Presas. So their experience was more stick sparring than actual stick fighting. But in my talk with GM Cacoy Canete, he never mentioned such a thing.

    He did mention devising the curving strikes that went around blocks. And how he used those to win several matches against other eskrimadors. But not specific sequences.

    Now, there are certainly specific sequences in terms of the twelve angles and various sinawali. GM Canete's twelve angles are different from my first teachers' (the Patalinghug family) twelve angles, despite both being Doce Pares.

    Same with sinawali. There are some common patterns. And then some more personalized ones. As yenhoi mentions, there's kob kob, for example. That was the hallmark of... lemme see if I can get this right... Villabrille? Floro Villabrille? (Is that right, yenhoi?)

    But specific sequences of strikes for each eskrimador? Not in my experience. I'm sure individuals have favorite combos, just like I enjoy the jab-cross-round kick. But I'd never known them to be particular codified.


    Stuart B.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  3. #108
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    Villabrille siniwalli is like all kob-kob yep. Very different from 'standard' siniwalli (Lacosta..)

    If you are familiar... villabrille "switches" and comes from a closed position. His abenecedario sequences are often one sided also. It really _seems_ that it could have been developed to _defeat_ other patterns, but I doubt it.

    strike!

  4. #109
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    John Lacoste. That's the other one I was trying to remember.

    Thanks.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  5. #110
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    A list can probably be found somewhere around here: www.Inosanto.com



    "Standard" (Lacosta) siniwali and abenecedario is somewhere in the student section here: www.SageArtsUnlimited.com



    Buy sticks here: www.martialartsmart.com



    ...and knives here: www.mnkali.com

    strike!

  6. #111
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    Inosanto's book on FMA has a nice section on some of his teachers as well.

    So Ky Fi, Gene Ching, Fatherdog...

    Do fencers (either competitive or traditional) have the sort of signature sequences that Oso brought up?
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  7. #112
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    witik

    Interesting. Is that why I've heard the foil-like cane that Bruce Lee fights Danny Inosanto with in Game of Death called a wik-tik stick? I always wondered about that. You know, Bruce Lee based a lot of JKD on fencing theory - he was a fencer himself, a regional champ, no less. Also, some attribute portions of the Philipino arts to western fencing due to the Spanish influence - like a reactionary art, like Aikido evolved from a reaction to counter sword techniques.
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  8. #113
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    Huh. I didn't know that's what the stick was called. But yeah, if I had to guess, I'd say that's why.

    Actually, the influence of fencing on eskrima is precisely why I approached fencing in the first place. Even the name eskrima is taken from the Spanish word for fencing (esgrima).


    Stuart B.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  9. #114
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    I didn't get very many of the Filipino names. Arnis was just a sideline study for me for about 5 years.

    Presas stated goal with "Modern Arnis" was to make it more approachable. He created forms/katas. I feel they were fine as they were basically the sinewalis, striking angles, deflections and disarms strung together. We learned and drilled them individually as well as in the forms. Not sure how many total there were but I learned 3 empty hand and 3 stick/knife sets.

    Presas' 'signature' sequence was: a strike directed at the opponents stick hand>>clockwise abanico>>counter clockwise abanico>>then a strike that started by by retracting the entire arm a little bit from the ccw abanico, rotating the stick clockwise back to a six o'clock position and then striking upwards from 6 ot 12.
    (this is from your perspecive as the attacker) the goal was to crash through their stick, abanico both sides of the hand and then blast it from the bottom again. hope that made sense.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

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  10. #115
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    My first teachers went through something similar. They created forms for each belt level. But I wasn't very keen on the forms. I didn't think they really bore enough relation to the actual performance of the techniques.

    We didn't have empty-hand forms either. Single stick, double stick, and stick and dagger.

    Nice combo. I certainly like the sequences that start with pummeling the hand on the way in. You've got to get past it anyway. Might as well mangle it. I'm a big fan of the redondo to the hand or wrist myself. (Sort of a whipping circular attack.)
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  11. #116
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    Oso: sounds similar to a "florette" and then a "draw."

    Either off and inward or backhand watik, latik or redondo (or even a deflection or block... same motions) - watik or abanico the stick onto the guys neck/shoulder then insert grab and throw or choke. Larry Hartsell favorite (among others.)

    strike!

  12. #117
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    Ap, by themselves those forms wouldn't have been enough. Combined with all the two man drilling they were another way to look at it all. Despite my inability to ever get a polished look to my forms, I do like playing them.

    yenhoi: cool. If I can ever get my stupid camera to work consistantly I'll shoot that sequence and give it to Ap to put up.
    Have you worked personally with LH or any of his students? Met of guy who claimed to have been a student of LH in Charlotte back in the early to mid 90's. Guy named Kevin. He was good. Popped me several times that day.
    "George never did wake up. And, even all that talking didn't make death any easier...at least not for us. Maybe, in the end, all you can really hope for is that your last thought is a nice one...even if it's just about the taste of a nice cold beer."

    "If you find the right balance between desperation and fear you can make people believe anything"

    "Is enlightenment even possible? Or, did I drive by it like a missed exit?"

    It's simpler than you think.

    I could be completely wrong"

  13. #118
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    Oso,

    Ap, by themselves those forms wouldn't have been enough. Combined with all the two man drilling they were another way to look at it all. Despite my inability to ever get a polished look to my forms, I do like playing them.
    Absolutely. And I had no complaints with the bulk of my training at that school either. It was just those particular forms that seemed geared more for flash than substance.

    Or perhaps I'm just being cynical. *shrug*

    And if you get that sequence filmed, yeah, send it on over.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  14. #119
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    Oso,

    Ap, by themselves those forms wouldn't have been enough. Combined with all the two man drilling they were another way to look at it all. Despite my inability to ever get a polished look to my forms, I do like playing them.
    Absolutely. And I had no complaints with the bulk of my training at that school either. It was just those particular forms that seemed geared more for flash than substance.

    Or perhaps I'm just being cynical. *shrug*

    And if you get that sequence filmed, yeah, send it on over.
    When you assume, you make an ass out of... pretty much just you, really.

  15. #120
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    Oso: If you count a 2-day seminar, mexican dinner, and a couple beers, but my teacher is a LH exponent (14 years.)

    strike!

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