OT: 'Kyoto tax' on the US

[Kristoffer]

If I were american I would probebly vote Clark

[chingei]

Originally posted by Kristoffer
If I were american I would probebly vote Clark

And you would 'probably' be better at English.

[Shaolinlueb]

bush sign it? HAHA that would cut into his oil profits, hell no on that from him. aka he's a moron who only cares about money.

[SanShou Guru]

In response to:
Brithlor and Radhnoti

Ok first raise you hand if you were and environmental chemist for 5 years? Mine is up anyone else? OK keep it up if you have a Masters in Chemistry? Anyone Brithlor or Radhnoti? NO ok.

The theory about man’s contribution to global warming is no longer a disputed point. The changes are very real the full end effect is yet to be determined but it is very clear to the VAST majority of the best climatologists agree (really all but those sponsored by the petroleum industry) that there is a real and major impact on global warming due to the activities of man. To say that it is based on too little information or a natural weather trend in ignorant to a laughable level.

If you want more info go here . It is an EPA sight so it will represent the GOVERMENTS opinion on the issue not some random tree hugger group like you may want to think.

It global warming may never reall effect the world enough to hamper your life style but only a real pr*ck cares only about their own wellbeing.

US should lead by example and the example now is if you are powerful enough then do what you want to do. That is going to make the world better.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
bush sign it? HAHA that would cut into his oil profits, hell no on that from him. aka he's a moron who only cares about money.

How's life with your horse on the commune?


Or are you a raging hypocrite?

[dwid]

Thank you SanShou Guru.

I'm a political psychology researcher with a focus in survey research methodology and did a ton of background research on Global Warming at one point. We've probably read a lot of the same material, you just understood it a lot better than me.


Anyway, I grow weary of people disputing Global Warming as a political issue, when the IPCC reports and so much other scientific data is out there.

[Radhnoti]

There are few organizations I trust LESS than the EPA. You speak as though a government agency is "above all the politics"...well, I hate to break it to you, but most government agencies are almost entirely dominated by political positioning. How much funding would the EPA get if they didn't work with the "random tree hugger groups" (also known as voters...or special interest groups which every politician must court) on their single biggest issue? Next, the IPCC...were they created specifically to look for changes in climate? Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change,hmmm... sounds like it. If I were them I'd CERTAINLY shoot down the idea/fear that is securing my job.

Here's a good site for anyone who feels like checking out a differing viewpoint as well as dwid and SanShou's:
http://www.skepticism.net/faq/enviro...lobal_warming/

From an entirely different site, that puts it fairly succinctly:
"The evidence for global warming consists entirely of computer models. Those models, however, are known to be wrong, since they do not accurately account for past temperatures...
The earth's temperatures today are not historically out of line. The earth was warmer a thousand years ago than it is today, and as recently as the 1970's falling temperatures were causing environmentalists (in some cases, the same ones who now push global warming) to warn against a coming ice age--caused, of course, by man's activities...
Average emperatures on earth never stand still; they are always either rising or falling. The most obvious potential cause for these fluctuations is variation in the amount of energy emitted by the sun. And, indeed, recent research has shown that variations in solar energy output correspond closely with temperature fluctuations on earth."
-powerlineblog.com

By the way, I'm a nuclear physicist...astronomer and...um popular sitcom actor. Folks don't care who you claim to be. Online it's hard to verify such things, making your presentation and corroboration most important. Actually I'm a nobody who thinks global warming is bunk, and I've read lots of presentations that concur.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by chingei


How's life with your horse on the commune?


Or are you a raging hypocrite?

I don't want to get into a political debate. but bush tends to do things that benefit him and his friends and basically say screw the people. i thought the president was suppossed to help the people, not just his friends and the rich? poverty is a growing problem in the usa, that sint being resolved with this guy like it was when clinton was in office. i drive a honda low emissions vehicle, honda was voted the cleanest car company in the world. im jsut saying he has a job to do as president, and he should think about others before himself which he doesnt seem to do from the stuff i have seen and read. he doesnt even do his job good.

[SanShou Guru]

LOL Radhnoti

Nice link. Large peer reviewed support for the argument and random unsupported right wing blogs (for the most part) against. I'll take the peer reviewed thanks.

I'm impressed you had time to gather this info between your Flat Earth Society Meeting and your local young republican rally.

I know enough about scientific theory and practice to know that nothing is absolute but the evidence is against you on this one.

Oh and there are a few people on this site that know me and could verify my claims about my experience in the field.

[Souljah]

lol, serpent warned of this.....Chigei is here!

I expect some sort of synical comment about my words any time now.....

[Souljah]

Hopefully we may be looking at alternatives to our current cars emission levels if this fuel-cell car trial in Iceland works out, though it will still be a long time before any changes are seen.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Souljah
lol, serpent warned of this.....Chigei is here!

I expect some sort of synical comment about my words any time now.....

Or maybe even "cynical"

[Christopher M]

I think the debate over global warming would be less controversial if it was generalized to a debate about human-induced climate change. The former is a specific case of the latter, and more doubtable for its specificity. The latter - is it really doubtable at all?

But the next step germane to this topic, that is - once the idea of human-induced climate change has been accepted, is to ask if the Kyoto Accord is the right solution. This is obviously a fundamentally important question, but it has been largely circumvented by Kyoto supporters by delegating it to the realm of the implicitly/a priori assumed.

There are certainly somes issues, in this regard, which should be discussed. Not the least of which being the economic and environmental impacts of exemptions and differential applications of Kyoto protocols depending on the country (eg. China) and industry (eg. the car industry) involved. Arguably, some of the most significant polluters are subsumed under these exemptions.

The position of well, sure it's not perfect but it can't do any harm may not be tenable if we consider the economic and employment implications for the protocols as a whole. That is, they may likely be severe enough that this is not something we want to do unless we're quite sure about it.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb



I don't want to get into a political debate. but bush tends to do things that benefit him and his friends and basically say screw the people. i thought the president was suppossed to help the people, not just his friends and the rich? poverty is a growing problem in the usa, that sint being resolved with this guy like it was when clinton was in office. i drive a honda low emissions vehicle, honda was voted the cleanest car company in the world. im jsut saying he has a job to do as president, and he should think about others before himself which he doesnt seem to do from the stuff i have seen and read. he doesnt even do his job good.

President Bush signed into law the Healthy Forests Restoration Act of 2003 to help prevent catastrophic wildfires and strengthen America's long-term forest health. The law is a result of the President's Healthy Forest Initiative and will reduce the risk of catastrophic fire to communities, help save the lives of firefighters and citizens, and protect threatened and endangered species.

Today's bill signing furthers the President's pledge to care for America's forests and rangelands. There are almost 750 million acres of forests across the nation and the President is committed to responsible stewardship of these national treasures.

The Healthy Forests Restoration Act will:

Strengthen public participation in developing high priority forest health projects;
Reduce the complexity of environmental analysis allowing federal land agencies to use the best science available to actively manage land under their protection;
Provide a more effective appeals process encouraging early public participation in project planning; and
Issue clear guidance for court action against forest health projects.
The Administration and a bipartisan majority in Congress supported the legislation and are joined by a variety of environmental conservation groups.

The bipartisan Healthy Forests bill will save the lives and property of Americans who live around public forest and rangelands and will contribute to the continued health of our great outdoors.

[chingei]

Originally posted by Shaolinlueb



I don't want to get into a political debate. but bush tends to do things that benefit him and his friends and basically say screw the people. i thought the president was suppossed to help the people, not just his friends and the rich? poverty is a growing problem in the usa, that sint being resolved with this guy like it was when clinton was in office. i drive a honda low emissions vehicle, honda was voted the cleanest car company in the world. im jsut saying he has a job to do as president, and he should think about others before himself which he doesnt seem to do from the stuff i have seen and read. he doesnt even do his job good.

Fact Sheet: U.S. Spending on Climate Change to Reach Highest Level Ever

(Budget proposes incentives to spur use of clean, renewable energy) (2200)

President Bush's proposed budget for fiscal year 2004 calls for a 15
percent increase in funding for climate change-related programs, bringing
total U.S. spending on climate change this year to $4.3 billion. If
enacted, it will be the highest level ever, according to a September 30
White House fact sheet on U.S. climate change policy.

Following is the text of the fact sheet:

(begin fact sheet)

Fact Sheet
Released by the White House, Office of the Press Secretary
Washington, DC
September 30, 2003

U.S. Climate Change Policy

"I've asked my advisors to consider approaches to reduce greenhouse gas
emissions, including those that tap the power of markets, help realize the
promise of technology, and ensure the widest-possible global
participation...our actions should be measured as we learn more from
science and build on It. Our approach must be flexible to adjust to new
information and take advantage of new technology. We must always act to
ensure continued economic growth and prosperity for our citizens and for
citizens throughout the world."

-- President Bush

The Bush Administration has delivered on the President's commitment with a
comprehensive, innovative program of domestic and international
initiatives:

National Goal to Reduce Emissions Growth: In February 2002, President Bush
committed the United States to a comprehensive strategy to reduce the
greenhouse gas intensity of the American economy (how much we emit per
unit of economic activity) by 18 percent over the next 10 years. Meeting
this commitment will prevent more than 500 million metric tons of carbon-
equivalent emissions through 2012.

Large Budget Increases for Global Climate Change: President Bush's FY '04
budget sought a 15 percent increase in funding for climate change-related
programs, bringing total U.S. Government spending this year to $4.3
billion. If enacted, it will be the highest level ever. In addition,
substantial funding for conservation programs under the 2002 Farm Bill
will significantly increase the amount of carbon storage from agriculture.


Tax Incentives for Renewable Energy and Hybrid and Fuel-Cell Vehicles: The
President's FY '04 budget proposes tax incentives totaling $4.2 billion
through FY '08 to spur the use of clean, renewable energy and energy
efficient technologies. Consistent with the President's National Energy
Policy, the tax incentives include credits for the purchase of hybrid and
fuel-cell vehicles, residential solar heating systems, energy produced
from landfill gas, electricity produced from alternative energy sources
such as wind and biomass, and combined heat and power systems.

Cabinet Committee on Climate Change Science and Technology Integration:
President Bush has created an interagency, cabinet-level committee, co-
chaired by the Secretaries of Commerce and Energy, to coordinate and
prioritize Federal research on global climate science and advanced energy
technologies. This Committee develops policy recommendations for the
President and oversees the sub-cabinet interagency programs on climate
science and energy technologies.