What do/don't you consider as being "Shaolin" ?

[GeneChing]

This gets a little sticky and is liable to confuse the uninitiated, but hopefully that confusion will inspire those confused to do a little more research on their own. Now as stated earlier by our esteemed KL, there are two major schools, Mahayana (greater vehicle) and Theravada (teachings of the elders) a.k.a. Hinayana (lesser vehicle). Zen/Chan/Shaolin descends from the Mahayana. In a gross simplification, you could view Mahayana as the Bodhisattva path - save all sentient beings before you become a Buddha. This is another reason why it spreads more - we're all trying to save everyone, even those bjj guys . Hinayana, then, is more like the path of the Lohan or Arhat. It's all about your individual - your asceticisms and disiplines. Of course, Shaoliners will note that we venerate the Lohans a lot. There are numerous references to Lohans in our style, but few references to Bodhisattvas. Herein lies a typical paradox of Shaolin and why a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing. On the surface, this might seem contradictory, especially how I just presented it. But at the heart, it's all the same.

[blooming lotus]

Originally posted by GeneChing
[, if you want to get to the roots, the real roots, read the Mahabharata. [/B]

Gene

the mahabharata is 100 000 stanzas long!!!

Are you telling us you've read it? Like... the whole thing??

[yuanfen]

Good summary Gene. Zen is the Japanicised pronunciation of Chan which is is the Sinicized pronounciation of the Sanskrit Dhyan and the Pali Zhan.

While the Mahabharata is broadly "Hindu"- many ideas in it
were transformed in the evolution of Buddha Dharma i.e. Buddhism.

Yudhisthir the oldest Pandava brother tried hard to defer his personal "happiness" on behalf of the community. And in his unwillingness to enter the heareafter without the company of stray dog that befriended him shows the seeds of sentient fellow feeling. And even in sections of the hereafter The Pandavas were surprised to know that their enemy the Kurus would be there too.


The Mahabharata also gives considerable insight into ancient martial and military arts in South Asia and perhaps in a way
many other parts of Asia.

I am sure that you also know about the overlapping symbolism of the monkey king in China and the Ramayana monkey king Hanuman who was/is a patron of martial arts.

joy chaudhuri

[yuanfen]

She is even more compassionate as a female.
Nothing wrong as a male.
Compassion is gender free.

[canglong]

bl,
if memory serves me correctly I recall Gene posting he has read it twice now

[GeneChing]

I've read it in chunks, probably not the whole thing, definately not end-to-end in one sitting, nor even one pass (but then I never read Journey to the West that way either, of the Bible for that matter.) I've the the Bhagavad Gita many times and consider it to be one of the most significant 'warrior' texts ever. I highly recommend that to any martial aspirant (or spiritual seeker). So in all honesty, no, I haven't read the Mahabharata cover to cover, but I've chipped at it over several years. If you want a taste, and don't want to invest in that much reading time, I'd recommend the Peter Brook's version. The Mahabharata is an amazing epic, the root of many religious texts, although not necessarily the origin. Like the Bible and many of the Sutras, every time I check in on it, I find something more. It's very rich, very deep.

I enjoyed the Ramayana too, more so than Journey to the West. I was actually reading the Ramayana in India, at Rishikesh mostly, and on the long train rides. Journey to the West has a great beginning and ending, but the middle is waaay too much "deux ex machina" for me. Ramayana has some great ideas on devotion and although many make the comparison between Sun Wukong and Hanuman, to me, they're as different as Daffy Duck and Donald Duck.

[mersil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GeneChing
[B]It's all Shaolin, if you're going to put faith in the Bodhidharma legend. Where I draw my distinction is the lineage. Even the maligned Shaolin-do can stake a claim as long as they draw some lineage. Sure, sure, we can go into the dog-faced monk and all and whether you beleive it or not, but the same scrutiny can be applied to any lineage - we all have skeletons in the closet, maybe not dog-faced monks, but skeletons.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------


what do you mean when you say maligned Shaolin-Do? what does that mean. Also and you make it sound as though Shaolin-Do is not really a Shaolin Martial Arts ...hmmm please explain .

1. are you Bias ?
2. do you prefer one style over another?
3. do you just defend the style you practice ? and all else is second best .

No offence. just please explain.

are you really an official Magazine editor ?

[brassmonkey]

Mersil, Gene is either too nice or too dimplomatic to say it but what he really thinks is shaolin do is a fraudulent organization that has no connection to Shaolin and theyre kung fu is no good.

Now b4 you start calling Gene a jerk or anything remember that anyone outside of Shaolin Do who has done any research comes to the same conclusion.

[MasterKiller]

uh oh. Here we go again.

[mersil]

I have done my homework also.

Kung Fu is only as good as your students make it. and how dedicated the teacher is from which you train from right ? big fat lazy students arent going to make a shaolin warrior. but you shouldnt tell this student that he is not allowed to train because he may make your orginazation look bad. ya know 40+ years of this could potentially make any style look kinda Un-kung-Fu like.

truth is i could say that wal-mart sucks because the parking lot is too small. or i seen some cheap imported junk in there on time.

now thats cleared up.

-- what do you mean Fraud ?
-- what do you base your conclusion on ?
-- is this a personal grudge ?
-- How can anyone draw that conclusion?
-- Where are you getting your facts ?
-- They have linage to the Shaolin Temples.
-- they have many , many, legitimate shaolin forms.
-- there cirruculum is all shaolin style,
-- they use many, diferent Animal forms, Tai Chi , Pa Kua , Hsing I , and Numerous weapons.
-- i believe they have more katas/forms than any other style i have background checked.
http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

the only real reason i can see that anyone would say these comments about a particular style, or orginaztion, is that they had some sort of personal grudge against them, or that they are in direct competion in some way.

i know that is very true in many walks of life. you try to downplay your competition to gain interest in your own product . similar situation. Like Chevy Dealers saying that Fords are no good.

no offence to your good magazine, but, it dont look good for an editor to downplay an orginazation that is only trying to preserve the Shaolin martials arts. and spread the wealth of knowlege of the ancient chineese to the USA. for over 40 years now.

good luck to you. and may your tounge dont swell

ohh, p.s. when people make bold statements like this, they really need to be able to back up thier claims. or their credibility is what is really at stake. if you can find hard evidence to back up these claims , i would take a second look . otherwise i will just mark this off as simple, hard feelings case. with no real content.

p.s.s. what style do you promote/ practice. i would like to do a thorough background check on your orginazation as well. give me a name of your grandmaster or a link.

[MasterKiller]

Mersil,
Before this goes any further, please be so kind as to tell us your training experience and # of years in Shaolin Do.

Thanks.

[David Jamieson]

uh, it's easy enough to find out where Gene got his fu from. heh heh. The source is legit as is the lineage at al.

I won't speak for Gene though.

I will have to add that the only ones who take offense about the questions of egrigiousness in shaolin-do are those who are participating in it's practice.

Sin Th'e's Karate is not bad, but I think it would behoove you to do your research before piping off about "shaolin" this, original that, blah blah blah.

you know, his brother is relatively close by, maybe you could ask him?

If not, then mind yer p's and q's and enjoy what you're doing if that's what you enjoy.

shaolin-do is to shaolin tradition what apples are to watermelons and if you took the time to ask questions as is buddhist tradition, you will find your own answers.

yeesh, what does it take?

oh well, cheers

[mersil]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
Mersil,
Before this goes any further, please be so kind as to tell us your training experience and # of years in Shaolin Do.

Thanks.

i've done a little bit of this , and a little bit of that.

i currently have my 10 year old son enrolled at David Deaton.
( i know , i know, ) but hey are geared towards developing children. not at preserving an ancient art.


there are currently no such " Shaolin Style " school in my town that i can attend. there used to be a Shaolin-do school nearby at a health club that i was a member of. that was a convenient set up, since i wasnt really trying to become a Shaolin warior. i used it as a way to condition myself. and loose some weight. and feel good about myself. there were many types of forms practiced there. pa kua, ti chi, drunken, weapons etc. it was all overwhelming.( i liked it too )

i think i may be too old to become a warrior monk type. so if i can get the teaching of the far east in a school that has almost every style of shaolin forms available. then maybe i can choose a style ( animal ) that fits me the best. and then further that training in a more traditional style, if i so choose. i am intrigued by the shaolin monks way of life.

could someone give me one reason i shouldnt practice at one of these schools if one comes available ?

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by mersil
could someone give me one reason i shouldnt practice at one of these schools if one comes available ?

As long as you aren't concerned with getting authentic Shaolin kung fu, then there is no reason. I understand Shaolin-Do is a good workout and probably provides as good self-defense training as the next guy.

I might add that picking a school based on the number of forms they teach is probably the wrong way to go, as well.

[mersil]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MasterKiller
[B] As long as you aren't concerned with getting authentic Shaolin kung fu, then there is no reason.



i dont understand this ( authentic ) is "tan tui" not "tan tui"
is "Ti Chi" not "Ti Chi" is are animal forms not from shaolin?

how can anyone say what is, and is not authentic ? how do i make a dinsticntion from what is authentic and what is not ? i mean how can i look at a kata and say , that is not authentic.

i mean none of us were there when this all originated. and most actual "proof" is hidden or lost . from what i gather there isnt even any "proof" that a southern shaolin temple ever existed. so cant the same be said about all schools that have no direct linage to a "modern" temple.

im just trying to figure why dont they fit your criteria for a shao-lin ( way ) school. is it because they dont stress the Monk style old fashion teachings. and they just have a broad base of shaolin katas. or that they do not stress a student to specialized in any certain style?

please elaborate more on the facts .