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Thread: What do/don't you consider as being "Shaolin" ?

  1. #16
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    Originally posted by Scythefall
    Basically, for a school to claim Shaolin lineage I look for the following:

    1. Temple Exercises - Muscle/Tendon Change, Golden Bell/IronShirt, traditional warm ups.

    2. Forms to include Longfist and the Shaolin 10 fist sets. You should also have a healthy availability of animal forms.

    3. Tai Chi. Meditation, and Chi Gung to be emphasised for well-rounded training.

    Some of my earliest learnings were that the kung fu is only part of being Lohan and I came to understand that rather quickly.
    there are alot off shaolin schools world wide, including in deng feng. Shaolin school gong and true shaolin temple gong are often through subleties very but definately different. Think about that. It's the 100% no muck about , every day, second and movement dedication that makes shaolin what it is....... (how many of you are sincerely prepared to give that)...At the temple, to be recognised as a martial monk you need to have comitted to buddhism firstly, being this is what shaolin kung fu was born from (so needing to understand and practice that to "claim" shaolin gong), then..... of those buddhist practitioners claiming discipleship, there are several levels of duty, acknowledgement and appointment (who might I add now don't even need full indocrination, taking soft option, lacking comittent, coprimising integrity , honour ( yes..I said that)and qi (does buddha ask too much?!?)

    This is not JUST religious dogma ( especially and ironically considering this is a religion that has no god). When you comprimise these standards of necceissty through either ignorance or arrogance, you comprimise your qi..do not have to practice hard qi gong and cease to perpetuate through high level cultivation. I am wearing slack here from people who can't look truth in the face...but truth and I are very good friends and I will stand reguardless...because I will help the weak and I will ( as all ch'an buddhists do) and I will renounce my nirvana for evoloution of humanity as is the nature of this branch of mahayana. Still wish to claim.........????? Neehao to you and welcome again to the story of the universe.

    Shi guolin ( shaolin-overseas.org/) and xing ping(americaneuropeanshaolin.com) have very good information on their websites, as does russbo.com. These are open for access. Pls see also www.goju-ryo.com.info/links and/or www.kunfu-taichi.com for some good links and reads.

    fruitful journeys to all

    blooming lotus
    Last edited by blooming lotus; 12-13-2003 at 04:31 PM.

  2. #17
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    You know Blooming Lotus, I just failed to realize that when I was typing it out. The transition into Chan, for me, was such a natural development, I can't even recollect that I made a concious decision to live that way. Initially, I was just your standard hard kung fu student, but the aggression in the training caused me to look to meditation and chi gung for balance. Obviously, meditation isn't just something you do, so I went with Chan and Zen meditation because it just made sense. I had problems here at home with my girlfriend who is a recovering alcoholic, and I was beset by intense anger and frustration. My Sifu gave me a Buddhist prayer and told me to get a mala and he showed me how to go through everything. It was all so subtle, the way it came into life, I didn't realize how vital a component it is. Or how powerful.

  3. #18
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    sorry to hear about your apparent misfortunes.

    Let me get this straight, you were a "standard hard kung fu student " yet you hadnt found ch'an or qigong....sure you were

    as for me not meditating...obviously genius

  4. #19
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    what about the kung fu around before shaolin?

  5. #20
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    Originally posted by blooming lotus
    sorry to hear about your apparent misfortunes.

    Let me get this straight, you were a "standard hard kung fu student " yet you hadnt found ch'an or qigong....sure you were

    as for me not meditating...obviously genius
    I don't quite understand the rolling eyes thing, except maybe you have an ego problem and think everything revolves around you Sorry, you misunderstood when I said "Obviously, meditation isn't just something you do, so I went with Chan and Zen meditation because it just made sense."

    To spell it out for Blooming Lotus, "Meditation isn't just something *someone* does..*a person* has to have some idea what to do, so i turned to Zen and Chan. "

    Sorry, but I was agreeing with you I don't agree for a second that Chan or Chi Gung is that vital for Kung Fu training. Kung fu can be treated just like any other sport, and is probably just as effective. I've proven that on the street. Chan is new to me, but fighting is not. I can say that my quality of life and the way I view training has changed since I took up the spirituality, but I'm not going to say it makes or breaks the training. Discipline is discipline.

  6. #21
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    Look discipline IS discipline, Kungfu is NOT sport(that would be wushu. It is shame so any put so uch into something that amounts to what? Best of the best of best sir? sure. The rest of the arguement is not even worth having. To be honest I don't care if you evlove personally or not and you'll believe whatever you decide no matter the facts or who's telling them. It's obvious we view life differently and I need not spend this way. Good luck with your gong and happy research to all.

  7. #22
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    Chinese martial arts have been used for sport long before modern wushu existed, and has been practiced & perfected by many who didn't practice chan. Not sure what the defenition of "qigong" is, but I consider holding stances/postures and learning proper breathing a simple version of qigong, and I haven't come across any Chinese martial art yet that doesn't do this. Can't quite figure out what the argument is all about

  8. #23
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    Originally posted by blooming lotus
    To be honest I don't care if you evlove personally or not and you'll believe whatever you decide no matter the facts or who's telling them.
    Is that the essence of your Chan? Instead of admitting you misread something and came off as a sarcastic whatever, you drive home the point with apathy? It's not important, nor is the sport or not sport issue, but sometimes its best to agree to disagree. Especially when you've obviously misinterpreted someone elses statement. And the fact that, yet again, you have tried to take something to a personal level...well, you can imagine what that does for your original statement.

    It's kind of like "I said my piece. I'm Chan Kung Fu and I can't read..watch me get defensive about it" and then people start getting scared. Don't scare people. I like most of your posts, I just didn't realize you were touchy like that. I wouldn't have said anything if I knew you were going to get all mad.

  9. #24
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    BL . . .

    Your avatar sucks.
    BreakProof BackŪ Back Health & Athletic Performance
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  10. #25
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    3 treasures of Shaolin

    It must include Ch'an (zen).
    It must include healing practices.
    It must include Martial arts practice.
    I couldn't agree more our study even uses the term the three treasures of Shaolin to describe this study. I train Hung Fa Yi Shaolin Wing Chun and and HFY traces its roots back to the Southern Temple roots . What I am finding is even if you don't have your own personal definition of Shaolin before you take up a martial art those arts that incorporate the three treasures of shaolin into their core of study will have an easier time of tracing their roots back to Shaolin or being defined as shaolin because their cha'n roots will make it self evident. In HFY our kung fu is derived from the Cha'n teaching and training methods of Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu or heaven man earth and their three existing brindges of reality wandering, aware, and focus as such this is something to be expereinced more than discussed but consistant with all cha'n/zen teaching saam mo kiu enables a pupil to recognize what is real is applicable to both life and combat situations this is the essence of Hung fa yi shaolin wing chun kuen. So again in short my study thus far would indicate any art claiming to be of Shaolin decent would have to incoporate what is now known as the 3 treasures of shaolin:
    1. Cha'n/zen philosophy
    2. Qi Gong practice
    3. Martial science
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  11. #26
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    Brad & canglong

    b - The reason you can't figure out the arguement is because it's an argument about Chan (at least I think it is.) It reminds me of that old Chan parable: The initiates are watching a flag wave above the temple. One says "the flag is flapping." The other contends "the wind is flapping." After the argument intensifies, the master comes over and says "your minds are flapping."

    cl - We discussed the three treasures on this thread a few months ago. I would say that the notion of martial science is novel, at least as an English term, unique to your camp.
    Gene Ching
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  12. #27
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    the reality of reality

    Hello Gene,
    There are many things about the study of Hung Fa Yi that could probably be considered "unique to our camp" and they too are grounded in the philosophy of cha'n/zen and are hard to convey with words but easily understood once experienced. Another way of looking at this questions is to understand those things that can best express or exemplify the philosophy of cha'n/zen may not be Shaolin but definately run parallel to the pursuit of reality which would undoutbedly be considered Shaolin cha'n/zen in nature. In Hung Fa Yi for example we have the oral idioms 1. saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn three points, one line Establish the original nature. One of the earliest hou kuets, this establishes the importance of center of gravity in relation to heaven, man and earth which is a concept adhered to by all (more specifically martial combatants)even if not clearly understood the reality of which can be easily experienced in a variety of ways. 2. Ng douh luhk muhn fa kihn kwan Five ways and Six gates, Influence the universe and this is in reference to the wing chun concepts of five lines and six gates the reality of this is found in all the interactions of man, for any interaction to occur one or more of these six gates must be addressed and this applies to any facet of interaction not just combat. The methodology of saam mo kiu three connecting bridges or its equivilant would be required as a method of providing the reality of experience to principles, concepts and theories at practice for SMK uniquely completes the combining of the idea with the principles and concepts with acute focus of action grounding the pupil in the reality of experience. In Hung Fa Yi this type of study is undertaken for all 3 treasures of Shaolin and from my understanding thus far any and all martial arts considered to be "shaolin" should exibit these at a minimun this is to say not only provide training in the 3 treasures but using the platiform philosophy of cha'n/zen to facilitate this training of the treasures to be consistant with Shaolin cha'n/zen.
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  13. #28
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    Re: the reality of reality

    lol ..dude..you lost me right in middle somewhere ( thems some big words ) but before you finished I understood and concurred...especially with your last statement. I dont speak for anyone else but this is what I mean when I say shaolin kungfu.

    As GeneChing said recently these things are the foundations and something that every artial artist must confront at some time during his evoloution as a practioner.

    As for you scythefall "your ch'an"? my friend, ch'an is an embodient off nothingness as paradoxical as that is an therefore belongs to no-one but I' sure we can forgive you on that score.... you're right I did misread your words though felt it uneccessary to address. I acknowledge that you were also agreeing with me but unfortunuately this doesnt mean I will return the gesture or lacked sincerity ( however ungenerously ) in any of my other coments. I am not here to demean you though and could tell you stories of how I've been stalked incessantly since arriving back from china with sars like symptoms, escaping a crazy situation myself leaving everything I owned bar some toiletries and rave about tideness and ack of tolerance, but excuses exshmuses..pls accept apologies.

    VASH ..........I LOVE MY SUCKFUL ATVAR!!!!!!


    ( besides, I've had it so long if I changed now you'd all wonder what happened... lol...Consider it trademark...)
    Last edited by blooming lotus; 12-18-2003 at 12:15 AM.

  14. #29
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    if the style came out of shaolinm then its a shaolin.

    if it is take from shaolin movements then it is a grey area (such as internal arts, wing-chun, some mizong styles, chin-woo)

    if its a style with some shaolin forms in it....its not shaolin.


    but I think this thread will always be one of personal perspective.
    I think, therefore I am awake!

    It's easier to learn to do it now and maintain it in old age than to try and learn it in old age.

    The world is my oyster.....Unfortunately I'm vegtarian.

  15. #30
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    Well, meditation will take other aspects of your life to a higher level.

    You will see and understand that which you only saw and understood externally and superficially before looking at it realistically.

    Zen, opens the minds eye to this type of perception. adeptness in it is so gradual, you don't even realize it, and when you do, it doesn't matter.

    the idea of making and unmaking is yin and yang at its root. IE: if you can break a persons arm, then to be the embodiment of yin and yang, you conversly need to be able to fix that broken arm as well.

    The martial art part is the least important part imo, where meditation and healing arts are the higher levels in Shaolin or in any lifestyle practice imo.

    The martial arts can be any methodolgy in other words, it is likely that somewhere inside them is a taste of the Shaolin repetoire anyway.

    I personally don't feel you can reach a very high level of kungfu without a very high level of introspection that is brought with meditative practice over time.

    I also don't think that Yin and Yang can be achieved and internalized in martial arts practice without learning how to do and undo.

    I gotta stick to my original answer on this one.
    If it doesn't have those three things then it really can't truly be "shaolin" on just the external movements of the martial arts alone.

    But, I also agree with Gene in many respects in regards to the "what's in a name" idea.

    cheers
    Kung Fu is good for you.

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