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Thread: What do/don't you consider as being "Shaolin" ?

  1. #31
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    suckful? man, that sounds like a subtitle!

    cl: No disrespect to Sifu Meng or GM Gee, but lately, some of the HFY stuff has been pretty undecipherable by the general public. I don't think BL is alone in her comment on your post. I konw you guys are on to something, but you should be very careful when you mix 'science' and 'chan.' That concoction often results in nazism. Where do you think Hitler got his swastika? It's all in the jargon.

    bl: All martial artists DO NOT have to confront spirituality. All should do so, but most can be content with less. That is acceptable too. I think to reach the high levels, you must grapple with it, but how many of us really, REALLY, reach high levels?

    s: Your 3 'ifs' are contradictory.

    kl: What's in a name indeed. We might as well be asking, "what's true?"
    Gene Ching
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  2. #32
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    Interestingly enough, i think that you would have to ask what are the objectives of Shaolin?" (the order). What are the tenets and beliefs of the order. What are the prescribed paths of beginning and continuing?

    If you match up, you can be at least Shaolin in name.
    The other aspect is time. As in at what point in time do your objectives and goals of prescribed learning match those of the objectives and goals of prescribed learning by the Shaolin order?

    Shaolin now, today is still Shaolin. Shaolin of memories is also Shaolin. For the sake of posterity it is only fair to state they are two different things.

    cheers
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  3. #33
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    contradictory?? how?


    if the style came out of shaolin (i.e originated in the temple) then its a shaolin style

    if it is take from shaolin movements (and then refined, mixed) then it is a grey area (such as internal arts, wing-chun, some mizong styles, chin-woo)

    if its a style with some shaolin forms in it....its not shaolin.
    I think, therefore I am awake!

    It's easier to learn to do it now and maintain it in old age than to try and learn it in old age.

    The world is my oyster.....Unfortunately I'm vegtarian.

  4. #34
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    if i may, the contradiction is related to your first if, wherein your second and third if contradict that.

    You say, if a style comes out of shaolin, then it's shaolin.

    but then you contradict this by saying that if it draws upon shaolin or only has forms from shaolin it is not.

    the contradiction lies in that it all comes from shaolin in whole or in part. By your argument, the only Shaolin kungfu is that which exists in the temple right now. But we know this isn't likely seeing as much kungfu has come out of the temple into the public over the years.

    so, again, we have "what's in a name" and how do you pay homage to recognize the origin of the material you study?

    cheers
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  5. #35
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    objectives and contradictions

    Thanks KL, I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed the 1, 2 & 3 problem.

    The objective argument is interesting. What is the objective of Shaolin? I'm sure our detractors would say commercialism, then we'd all be Shaolin (except for those unknown Mr. Miyage types who work as sups for low rent apartments). The monks would probably say it's about Chan. But then, if you study Chan, one of the main tenets is not to be possessive of the teachings, so in a sense, that renders this whole discussion as not being Shaolin. Why would you want to define the teachings in such a way to exclude potential sangha? That's the problem with thinking too hard on this stuff, you'll end up in mind traps. That's why Chan has koans (or kung-ans in Chinese).
    Gene Ching
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  6. #36
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    I agree that one shouldn't be possessive of the teachings. And in being that way, you either pass them along openly to the best of your ability, completely forget them or a bit of both.

    The transcendance of the lessons are in the internalization of the pure knowledge and the removal of the subjective. Tab A fits into slot b kind of stuff. Without all the instruction on what exactly tab a is or what slot be is, or how we can recognize them and use them etc etc.

    I think that one of the reasons that it is advised to not be possessive of Chan teachings is because ultimately, there is nothing to possess.

    I would be very interested to hear the modern telling of what the objectives are for the temples offerings in the here and now. I would be equally interested in hearing what the objectives of the learning path was thee 300 years ago and at other points in history.

    I do understand the original objective of the temple was to preserve and spread the teachings of buddhism. It's how all the other stuff works into that objective that I would really give a good ear to.

    cheers
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  7. #37
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    Let me explain it this way.....

    1) if the car is all made by ford then it is a ford.

    2) if the car is a joint project between ford and honda it is a little bit of a grey area to say which it is.

    3) if a honda has a ford steering it is not a ford.

    now how does that contridict?

    I do, however, greatly appriciate everyones views, whether agreeing or disagreeing.
    I think, therefore I am awake!

    It's easier to learn to do it now and maintain it in old age than to try and learn it in old age.

    The world is my oyster.....Unfortunately I'm vegtarian.

  8. #38
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    Ford vs. Shaolin

    Sure, that simplification works, but we're not dealing with solitary unit like a car. We're dealing with a vast curriculum of teachings. Take something like Shaolin eagle claw - legend has it that this style descended from Yue Fei, then passed through Shaolin. Shaolin claims it as part of the legacy. That would be like a Honda passing through Ford for a little work, then Ford claiming it. Is that Shaolin/Ford? Also there's a problem of whole vs. parts. If I put a Ford gear pedal in my Honda, the Honda might not be Ford, but the gear pedal would be. Transfer that idea to forms. How many forms/parts does it take for the whole thing to be generalized as Shaolin/Ford? Here's the kicker - there are so many Shaolin forms that nobody, I mean nobody, knows them all. Most barely know a fraction. So we're not dealing with a whole car here. We just dealing in parts. So, to use your metaphor, it's like we're a auto parts store. How many Ford parts do we need in stock to advertise ourselves as a Ford auto parts store?

    It's all grey. Maybe that's why Shaolin disciples wear these.
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  9. #39
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    > kl The objective of the last 300yrs has been today, as other points in
    > history have been (bearing kaleidescoppe in imnd) to create other ponits
    in
    > history yet to come (future). As for "the other stuff" , when you
    > understand each moment in time as a piece of one continuous story of
    > evoloution of energy from the first abscence of vibration of energy (chan
    > (nothingness - antimatter???being formless) producing matter (yin and
    > yang)of the first particle (helium, being the lightest ) then follow
    their
    > parrellel evoloutionary courses through qi ( reactionary energy that
    becomes
    > so when interacting with matter) and the heliums evoloution to heavier
    > particles up the spectrum of density and speed vibrating slower and at
    > decrasing frequencies until we have organic and more temporary matter
    (such
    > as human flesh)
    > and understand that the only thing permanent in that equation is the
    enegry
    > vibrating at that higher frequency (pending karma and what "balance you
    are
    > left with from what you went in with and what you checked out with after a
    > lifetime of absorbing and omitting) acknowledging the fact that the idea
    is
    > to reassimiilate into the highest frequency of nothingness you come to
    > understand that all actions in life are a part of your journey back to
    that
    > abscence of frequency ( reproducing freuency - ie "the wheel of life"and
    it
    > is the nature of that frequency to create a series of events ( to be
    loose)
    > that will enable this to occur. So everything that happens is a ponit in
    > that cycle and once aware of that cycle, the story and coinciding pieces
    > (events in time) have seeequential order and meaning according to the
    story
    > of the cycle so far and the cycle to come. so you have personal karma and
    > evoloution, you have societal (local -inational-international-
    > personally/interpersonally and intrapersonally) then you put all together
    > and get humaniity's karma and evoloution past presennt future -
    backwards,
    > forwards through, round etc (cosequently transcending measurable time and
    > distance). I hope I haven't repeated myself and y humble thoughts give
    > you another perspective to consider. ps it is iportant here to know that
    > energy doesnt stop being it just oves further apart as it disperses and
    > viibrates higher until it vibrates so high and far apart that it becomes
    > nothing resulting in the reaction of manifestation (meaning something) (so
    > that paradox contradicting the yin/yang theory never occurs) at that very
    > nano (smnallest measurrreable amount today and only very recently proven
    > after an international effort ( (including chinese and nasa scientists
    > assiilating eastern and western schools of thoughht, standard , psychology
    > and both human , financial and material rescource ) and a budget of ?30
    > billion dollars). Just to bring it home, shaolin I believe IS all about
    > Ch'an and the higher purpose, martial arts (in my little mindseye) is not
    > only functional interpersonally but intrapersonally as the best and most
    > complete way to prolonging your vehicle increasing opportunity or karmic
    > resloution - absence thereof being the objective. Im pretty sure that someone will argue validity here but feedback is definately welcomed
    >

  10. #40
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    I also heard that there were 1 or two old monks only in the temple....till after a shaolin film came out in the late 70's / early 80's..... but rumour is just that.
    I think, therefore I am awake!

    It's easier to learn to do it now and maintain it in old age than to try and learn it in old age.

    The world is my oyster.....Unfortunately I'm vegtarian.

  11. #41
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    Talking

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  12. #42
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    ohhhhh boy sc_guy

    Yes, right around the period of 1983-ish there were probably just a handful of monks if that. Jet Li's movie Shaolin Temple rekindled the flame and got Shaolin going again. Jet Li even commented on Shaolin's condition at the time he was filming. Now we all know that China is not a democracy. So the majority of it is government controlled. Shaolin was essentially turned into a tourist trap and was generating revenue for the government.

    Now I believe in the wheel of life. I feel Shaolin was again reborn in the 80's and started its life again. After almost dieing during the cultural revolution period, the Shaolin Temple was in confusion and the monks scattered everywhere. They went into hiding. The only way some of the monks could survive was to return back to secular life before monkhood. Some even had families. So in answer to your question the monks were hiding during the cultural revolution. By 1992 Shaolin went from dieing to alive completing the wheel of life. Iam sure Shaolin was thriving and gaining support.

    ________________________________________

    All the MA in the Shaolin temple were brought in from outsiders. Actually both Shaolin and Wudan has little contributation to the CMA history. Too much credit had been given to them that they don't deserived.
    _________________________________________


    Your not the only one who has stated this. I disagree with you as Shaolin is very much the roots of CMA. Yes there are countless styles out there but Shaolin is its own distinct style too. Wushu does exist in Shaolin's system today but traditional Shaolin is still very much alive. You just have to know where to find it.
    Last edited by Songshan; 12-21-2003 at 07:29 AM.

  13. #43
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    approximately 20 million Chinese were killed under Mao's rule.

    Those who were the first to go were the scholars, the philosophers, the enemies of the state (dissidents) and anyone who propogated the idea of self empowerment (which is essentially what Kungfu is at its root).

    It is likely that some escaped (monks) and hid, It is just as likely that many were executed in a summary fashion by the RA.

    There are some masters in the west who remeber these terrible times and have toild their stories of their escape from the brutality of the Chairman and his underlings. Pretty scary stuff and many still bear its psychological scars today.

    It is a curious mix, but ultimately I think it is a good thing that the Shaolin is up and running again regardless of the extenuating circumstance. There is decent training going on there.

    cheers
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  14. #44
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    the shaolin experience

    Hello Gene,
    Experience/knowledge are what we all need as guiding tools to understand Hung Fa Yi, Shaolin, cha'n or anything for that matter with experience comes tangable self evident proof of law or tao for who can smell the rose for another or taste the honey or feel the sting for someone else.

    General Public: Yes, cha'n/zen is for the general public but as we all know you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

    Gung Wu: It is incumbent upon those that consider themselves belonging to this group to reach a level of comprehension that will allow them the capability to decipher Hung Fa Yi and not the reverse.

    cha'n/science: It could easily be argued that the resultant conclusions of emperical truth through self examination follows in line with many scientific principles.

    Dialogue If there are lingering questions pertaining to Hung Fa Yi please ask them and I will do my best to either answer them directly or find the answers.

    I too was refreshingly surprised and delighted at blooming lotus's remarks as well when she said "but before you finished I understood and concurred ...especially with your last statement. I dont speak for anyone else but this is what I mean when I say shaolin kungfu."

    Kung Fu/Shaolin "Knowing others is wisdom;
    Knowing the self is enlightenment.
    Mastering others requires force;
    Mastering the self needs strength.

    He who knows he has enough is rich.
    Perseverance is a sign of will power.
    He who stays where he is endures.
    To die but not to perish is to be eternally present."
    Tony Jacobs

    ng doh luk mun fa kin kwan

    "...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
    and not what is on the surface,
    On the fruit and not the flower.
    Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association
    Southern Shaolin Kung Fu Global Discussion Forum

  15. #45
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    Shaolin

    Shaolin Temple was in '82, and that really helped to rekindle Shaolin. As for monks in the temple, Songshan is a big mountain. Even today, many of the monks don't hang out at Shaolin, now because it's too touristy. They often spend the practice in many of the smaller temples, scattered around the mountainside. There weren't many monks after the CR, for sure, but there were still lots of practitioners. Let's just look south for a second - according to the southern Shaolin myth, only five monks survived, and that quintet gave rise to styles like Wing Chun and Hung Gar, both very vital Shaolin disciplines. So how many Chan 'monks' does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Two - one to notice the light and the other to notice the absence of dark. OK, sorry, had to interject a little crazy wisdom, it's Zen we're talking here, after all.

    I've been doing a lot of research into the CR lately. It's a big black hole. KL is right, a lot of people were killed. But did you know that under Mao's rule and in despite of the CR, the population actually grew? It was 630 million a decade before the CR and over 880 million after. What's more, average life expectancy increased from 40 years to 60 under Mao. Also, we talk about communism not being a democracy, and it isn't, but have you read Mao? The ultimate goal of communism is democracy. North Korea, the commie side, is actually called the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. We just don't use that term here in America generally because it's too confusing for people who've never studied polictics. Now communism never made it to democracy, and many might argue, especially in light of our recent political events, neither did we.

    Anyway, back to the ongoing 'validity of Shaolin' discussion that we have here, even if the whole thing was a shame, it would still be interesting, just like crop circles. Think about it.

    canglong - I hear you and agree, but I'd add Kuanyin into your equation. That's key, as much as meat loves salt.
    Gene Ching
    Publisher www.KungFuMagazine.com
    Author of Shaolin Trips
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