4 THOSE upset with Mike and Matt-XMA

[truewrestler]

http://www.realprowrestling.com/promo.html

http://www.realprowrestling.com/

[Shaolin-Drunk]

Ask John Stossell if wrestling is fake....wait, he can't hear you because a wrestler beat him up and deafened his left hear in the late 80s for suggesting that on a 20/20 interview. When I was kid, and for most of the entire history of wrestling for that matter, wrestling wasn't promoted as being fake. It was promoted as ulitimate gladiatorial combat. The WWF started admitting it was a put on in the mid- to late 90s.

I thought that was Geraldo?

Well it was only when a large bus or train passed him, he would hear a ringing tones!!

[truewrestler]

I don't think it was either of them... ? There was a radio guy that I believe Hulk Hogan put in a sleeper hold after the guy said pro-wrestling was fake and when the guy passed out he fell and hit is head on the tile floor or whatever of the room and was seriously injured. He ended up suing... not sure of any more details. .....or maybe this is another incident....

[MasterKiller]

It was John Stossell. David Schultz slapped the shiznit out of him when Stossell said he thought wrestling was fake. He isn't deaf in his ear, but he did experience some hearing loss. My point was just that it used to be marketed as the real deal....

[truewrestler]

Stossell deserved it then if he said that to Dave Schultz. Dave was (RIP) an awesome amateur/Olympic wrestler

[Merryprankster]

You are on the one hand bashing me and on the other agreeing with the sentiments of others that mirror mine.

I agree that there are valid criticisms to be made of their program and claims. What is NOT at issue is how hard they work at what they do. However, you dismiss it with an upturned nose and a wave of the hand. It is this and this only that I take issue with. I'm desperately sick of the attitude that what somebody else does doesn't take as much dedication as "REAL TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS." Horse****. Different goals, but it takes just as much dedication if not more in many cases.

you have no idea of what my regimen is or where it has taken me in life.

It's done nothing for your rhetorical skills.

I do believe I did say in my first post that i thought they were great acrobatics, but that's about it.

Again with the dismissiveness.

Let me spell it out for you plain and simple since you can't seem to read for comprehension:

I object to your high and mighty attitude that what they are doing is something that somehow doesn't require as much effort as REAL TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS.

Even in your follow-on posts you give it short shrift while claiming to acknowledge it. "Yeah, they're pretty good acrobats" *shrug* is hardly recognition.

Hell, I don't even have a dog in this fight as I could care less about back flips, Kata and board breaks. I'm just tired of the attitude.

[Falcor]

You know, it occurs to me that we're upset with the wrong people here. Sure Matt and Mike and their ilk sell their flashy stuff as MARTIAL art without disclaimers that it's really martial ART. But really, how did it come to this? Did karate tournaments in the 70s have such acrobatics in their competitions? I think the fault lies with the judges. As long as the judges for these meets accept and condone such displays as acceptable, then that's what's gonna get sold and propogated.

I'll take an example, the kiai. My friend is a long time goju karate practitioner and when he does a kiai, the whole **** room shakes. He's not necessarily the most ear-splitting loudest, but it's deep and reverberates through you when he kiais. But it's not necessarily the most impressive looking/sounding if you heard it in a carpeted hotel ballroom. But in these meets, kids go hoarse screaming at the top of their lungs becasue that's what they think the judges are looking for in a kiai. If these judges knew what they were doing, or were true to their roots and fundamental principles, they would be deducting points for a kiai that was all bombast and no ki.

Sure the media present flase and overblown images of MA to the public, but, these judges are supposed to be the gatekeepers for the martial arts. We can lay the blame for FLASH in wushu on the Communist Party, but for modern karate, there's no such boogeyman to blame. The success and failure of karate lies squarely with these so called judges. Mike and Matt are young, in their 20s, no older than 30s. Presumably the judges should be someone whos' been doing MA fo many years, who should know better.

So I give kudos to the "kids" for the hard work they put into what they do - even though it's bad MA. I say shame on you to all the judges that allow these things to go on.

[Christopher M]

I haven't been following the whole discussion; sorry if this has been covered.

The main objection here seems to be the misinformation aspect. Ok; I'm probably as opposed to misinformation as anyone. But these guys are specifically calling what they do XMA, right? They're not claiming to be doing the art of anyone here, and they're not claiming to be doing the pure form of martial arts which every other style is descended from, so what's the problem?

Is the problem simply that they claim it's martial arts at all? If that's the case - I'd wager the XMA talent could handle the majority of "real" martial artists on basis of conditioning alone (especially balance and general athleticism - awareness of one's body).

If the standard is that it's not "real" martial arts because they're doing their techniques "wrong", then from the point of view of a xingyi man, would the shaolin styles be fake? And vice versa?

Is the standard that it's not "real" because they're not doing full contact sparring? We know where that would lead, huh?

Is the standard that it's not "real" because the bald guy was a putz? Again, no good.

So what's the big deal?

[MasterKiller]

So what's the big deal?

The big deal is that while they call it XMA, and perform XMA material, and openly admit it's flash, the format of the show presented the material in such a way as to associate the XMA philosophy with TMA. They touted Point-Fighting as the real expression of combat theory, and they mixed in weapons combat applications with baton-twirling Katana routines. So, the general audience would be led to believe, by association, that XMA is TMA technique, but with a little flash, when, in effect, it is gymnastics with a smidgeon of TMA on the side.

I don't think people are pizzed because they do XMA; people are pizzed because XMA reflects poorly on the rest of us and our training because of the way in which the material was presented.

[Christopher M]

Well, it's infotainment TV, of course they're gonna go on about the noble warrior when showing anything even remotely martial. They played a commercial where a mouthwash character did karate chops to threaten gingivitis too. Is this really a problem? I mean, other than making you want to change the channel if its not an aesthetic that interests you.

[MasterKiller]

Is it really a problem?

In the grand scheme of the universe? No.

But when it comes to the lack of respect TMA get anyway, and then something like this comes along, it just seems to set us back about 20 years.

Can you imagine what the MMA guys are posting about it? I'm sure someone can post a link to a mma.tv thread or something. I doubt any of those guys are saying "It was just a TV show, don't take it seriously."

[Christopher M]

Is there a conflicting array of information about martial arts being presented to the public - a mixture of reasonable and unreasonable? Absolutely. This is hardly characteristic of XMA, it's present in just about every aspect of our culture.

In general for these kinds of situations, there's two sorts of things you can do to effect change.

You can demand other people change their behavior, or you can change your own. You can censor, or you can educate. You can demand only your viewpoint is acceptable, or you can contribute your viewpoint to the cultural exchange.

Which of these sorts of solutions do we support?

Personally, I support the libertarian answers, not the authoritarian ones. If I was an impressionist and I wanted people to learn about impressionism, I'd show them impressionism, I wouldn't censor all the realist paintings. Same deal here.

If those realists were claiming they were doing impressionism, it would impair with this process and I'd object. If they were claiming impressionism was a reduced and absurd form of realism that should be ignored, it would impair this process and I'd object.

But this isn't the case in this particular example.

[MasterKiller]

This is hardly characteristic of XMA, it's present in just about every aspect of our culture.

That doesn't make it acceptable. Most people cheat on their taxes, but it's still a crime.

Which of these sorts of solutions do we support?

Well, now, that's what everone is saying, isn't it? Give TMA equal air time, and we'll call it even-steven.

[Christopher M]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
That doesn't make it acceptable. Most people cheat on their taxes, but it's still a crime.

The point wasn't whether or not it was acceptable, but to point out that the problem isn't with XMA, but is something more general.

Well, now, that's what everone is saying, isn't it? Give TMA equal air time, and we'll call it even-steven.

It's not Discovery's or XMA's responsability to educate people about what you are doing. It's yours.

[truewrestler]

COMBAT SPORTS ARE THE ANSWER

Viva la MMA and San Shou!