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Thread: "Chasing Hands".....

  1. #1
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    "Chasing Hands".....

    Yeah you know the phrase and none of you "chase hands" ever. Right?

    Yeah right!! On other threads like "The WSL Way", and some others, like in clips that have been posted, this topic has come up, and I want to see what people define as "chasing hands".

    Everyone says they don't do it,.......which is nonsense. It is rampant in Wing Chun. So....what is YOUR definition of chasing hands, with some examples. And why do you think you don't do it?

    Me??? oh, I have seen a few things I would call "chasing hands"...the most obvious would be using the WC "shapes" to "block" strikes..(or try to - lol). That is the worst example rampant in many people's expression of WCK. But there are many more....so let's hear some, and let's hear why you dont do it....
    Last edited by KenWingJitsu; 12-11-2003 at 07:45 PM.

  2. #2
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    chasing hands , chasing timing , chasing a concept or idea cuz your to stubborn to change , and so on.

    yep ive done it , just like when you bite on a good fake ,i'm sure i will do it many,many times again

    but with each time i will try to find the cause of ignorance and train it out .

    finding it means being honest with yourself , easy say , hard to do

    not chasing hand's '' nearest weapon to the nearest '' center '' offered ,

    '' but i swear one of these days if i just keep trying my bong sau will catch the jab ''

    plz shoot me now
    If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

    Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself

    You sound rather pompous Ernie! -- by Yung Chun
    http://wslglvt.com

  3. #3
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    Chasing hands is when you try to establish contact with the opponent's hands; when you SHOULD HAVE executed a strike/attack instead.

    One advise my teacher gave me to avoid chasing hands, "When you have nothing else to do, strike".
    Defend where there is no attack; attack where there is no defense.

    Attack is the secret of defense; defense is the planning of an attack.

  4. #4
    Ernie:

    Moving forward toward the opponent with your bong sao WHEN he jabs at you might be interesting to try...watch his lead elbow in order to determine the "moment".

  5. #5
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    No basic disagreement here so far.

    per Mushashi: think only of striking the enemy.

    per Frank Benn: Like Christmas, better to give than to receive.

    My Sifu wants my defense to become so automatic it needs no conscious attention. So that my total conscious attention is on hitting.

    If YOU are laying the smackdown, any chasing of hands will be done by the other guy.

    per Ernie: easy say , hard to do

    Concentration on less direct goals like trying to impose a specific technique, leads to chasing hands.

    per Scott Sonnon: "take the gift, don't seek the bounty"

    If your goal in the exchange is much more complicated than "hit him" or "take'em down, choke 'em out", or contains the name of a technique in either Chinese or your native tongue, it's too complicated or indirect to be realistic.

    Not unique to WC - I've seen grapplers chase takedowns, chase armbars, etc. Done it myself way too often too.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
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  6. #6
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    To me chasing hands means leaving the boundaries of where your hands should be and creating an opening for your opponent. Chasing hands leaves gates open. I like them closed.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  7. #7
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    ultimatewing chun
    Ernie:

    Moving forward toward the opponent with your bong sao WHEN he jabs at you might be interesting to try...watch his lead elbow in order to determine the "moment

    don't mind me i'm on silly mode today ,

    how about this instead , a 3 foot man trying to punch a 7 foot man in the face cus his following the rule to a ''t''
    If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

    Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself

    You sound rather pompous Ernie! -- by Yung Chun
    http://wslglvt.com

  8. #8
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    Originally posted by Ernie
    how about this instead , a 3 foot man trying to punch a 7 foot man in the face cus his following the rule to a ''t''
    Sounds to me like 3' guy has the wrong rule book.

    Regards,
    - kj

  9. #9
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    Originally posted by Phil Redmond
    To me chasing hands means leaving the boundaries of where your hands should be and creating an opening for your opponent. Chasing hands leaves gates open. I like them closed.
    Couldn't be said better!...

  10. #10
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    Ernie sez:
    how about this instead , a 3 foot man trying to punch a 7 foot man in the face cus his following the rule to a ''t''
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    In part preaching to atleast part of the choir Ernie.Never have heard of such a rule never have followed or taught such a rule..

  11. #11
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    hahah
    i was told a story about a wing chun fight in hong kong were the wing chun person was defeating the other guy but the other guy kept turning his face away from the wing chun person , so the wing chun person would run all the way around to were the guy was facing and then start punching from there . and this went on and on
    when asked why he kept doing that instead of just hitting from were he was he replied , i had to keep attacking his center , thinking that the center was only the face and front torso .

    i just played with the moral a bit

    so though he was not chasing hands he was chasing concept

    but lets not turn this thread into a take apart ernies stories cus i lack the creativity to come up with a better example

    kwj asked a very good question , i just want to see what ohers think as well
    Last edited by Ernie; 12-12-2003 at 09:26 AM.
    If the truth hurts , then you will feel the pain

    Do not follow me, because if you do, you will lose both me and yourself....but if you follow yourself, you will find both me and yourself

    You sound rather pompous Ernie! -- by Yung Chun
    http://wslglvt.com

  12. #12
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    Ha!...
    Many " teachers" just go by the book and don't explain principles and concepts to their students. They will often say that "If you ask means that you are not ready to know" this brings many of these misconceptions about Wing Chun and ....the need to seek answers outside of the system.
    It would be more appropriate to seek a better Sifu and learn a better Wing Chun but how do you know for sure if the person you go to is a good teacher ,without the experience and knowledge to see the difference?...Easier to notice the nearest badass with a loud mouth.

  13. #13
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    Ken good topic. Fully agree most say they dont chase but when the fists start to fly they do.
    I have always felt that all the topics posted on the how do you deal with jabs etc have been trick questions.The answer is you dont.

    Chasing stems from fear and a misunderstanding of combat. If you fight you will get hit.(Unless your opponent is far beneath your abilities). You must accept getting hit as the risk you take from fighting. The goal is not to avoid getting hit but to avoid getting hit with full power while hitting at close to your full power.

    To avoid chasing you must understand the golden rule; the other hand always comes. Therefore we must learn to move in such a way to cover the most likely path of the second hand before it ever starts to move.

    To avoid chasing we must understand that there are no blocks in wing chun. WingChun coves but does not block.

    There is more but this will do.

  14. #14
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    I agree with everything that has been said so far and dont have much more to add except that
    1) looking for a 'trap' is chasing hands.
    2) Having a defensive mindset is the most common cause of 'chasing hands'.
    3) There are times when you should chase hands i.e. when you are out of wing chun range but in (for want of a better word) boxing range and haven't got time or the opportunity (yet) to close the distance.

    Regards

    Nick
    'In the woods there is always a sound...In the city aways a reflection.'

    'What about the desert?'

    'You dont want to go into the desert'

    - Spartan

  15. #15
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    Good Topic

    This is a good topic. A very obvious chasing of hands is when your are doing chi sau with a student, you disengage and do a wide slow obvious hook punch (for training purposes) and that student goes outside of his body boundary to block the hit rather than to just hit straight forward upon loss of contact as the Wing Chun maxim suggests. If you just hold that hook punch out there so the student can't even contact it, then he realizes that it was a waste to try to connect with the hooking punch rather than to just hit straight forward.

    We use the suggestion that whatever attack comes your initial response should be to strike the opponent and not think about blocking or deflecting incoming hit. Of course if the counter strike is executed wisely then you will also position yourself away from the opponent's flight path or you will also have a barrier (Wu sau or Tan sau or Pak sau) there for the incoming strike at the same time.

    The danger of interpreting not chasing hands as totally ignoring the opponents hands and just going for the hit is that you might get hit or that all Wing Chun comes down to two people chain punching each other to death in a wild flurry of action where both sides are getting hit. I think to prevent this kind of thing in fencing they put in a rule that you must engage the blade of the incoming strike first and then you can counter hit. But I am not a fencer so I could be wrong. Depending on the circumstance of use and the relative skill of the opponent, sometimes you don't want to hit the guy and just control (teacher vs elementary school student for example or drunk relative at a Christmas party).

    In an effort of trying to prevent from getting hit, many students like to try to grab the hand coming in (like Aikido). Someone with quick reflexes could take advantage of this and when the hand is suddenly not there you got big problems. You have just wasted a movement trying to catch a bird by the tail as they say in Tai Chi but it has taken flight and you don't know where it went. MY Hung style teacher was very good at doing decptive "S" shaped strikes that looked like they were coming in at a certain angle, so that if you tried to block then suddenly the strike would end up coming around your block to hit you anyway. The instant you thought about blocking the strike would be elswhere.

    The superior thing to do is to counter a strike with a strike without getting hit. But this isn't always possible. Sometimes you just have time to cover the space and the incoming strike connects with your limb somewhere maybe with the Bong sau and Wu sau combination or Bong sau and Tan sau combination (Kwun sau) leading to a grab and punch/chop or with a Pak sau movement leading to a punch or chop.

    The blocks of some systems like in Hung style are often considered strikes because they are meant to destroy/damage/hurt the incoming limb like an anti-missile strike.
    Some will feel this is chasing hands and some won't. Against inferior kickers it seems quite effective just to kick the incoming kick.
    Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun

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