"Chasing Hands".....

[AndrewS]

I'll chime in on this one, Dhira,

On the simplest level, chasing hands is reacting and going for an incoming limb, usually taking the shortest path from your present hand position to that of the incoming limb, and putting force into that limb without regard to vector relative to body. This is blocking in it's purest and worst sense. Make it and all you do is stop (and possibly sting) the shot. If it changes or you misjudge you get hit. It may be a last ditch necessity to cover but it's a pretty bad option.

In chi sao this becomes games played hand against hand when forward pressure is lost.

On the visual level, what you *should* be doing - if you operate in the timing where you're in the space where the shot can hit you - is taking your hands from their present position into your opponent's core by the shortest path which intersects the incoming force.

On a kinetic level, what you *should* be doing is applying force to affect the core of the body, usually using a force which contains a component which is a constant pressure towards the other person's core, rather than pushing the other person's limbs.

The visual mistake is what gets most people nailed in free motion, the kinetic is the mistake most often seen in chi sao.

Later,

Andrew

[Keng Geng]

Beware of DOUBLE KILL.

Many Wing Chun students are so caught up in not chasing hands they end up subjecting themselves to it.

[KenWingJitsu]

Beware of DOUBLE TALK! lol

Anyways,...I am proud of you guys. There are some real gems posted already. WIngman, hunt1 Nick, AndrewS, Yong Chun....brilliant posts! Nice nice nice!!!!! There is still hope!

Victor, about tryin the bong sau on a jab......have you tried it? What happened? Furthermore...should you even try to "bong-sau" a jab? How would you know he's going to jab? Why not attack center first?

Phil, what do you mean by "closing gates" Can you give an example? Say an attack is coming, you dont know which hand (or foot) he's going to attack with. What "gate" do you close? What do you do?

[Phil Redmond]

I simply mean covering an area without over extending.
I train in drills to cover random attacks over and over sort of like a boxer does, (muscle memory). After doing lots of contact chi sau your eyes will get used to the angles of attacks. Once an attack is launched from a distance further than the customary chi sau distance movements are easier to see and interpret. Then I do slow counters to random attacks and build the speed up to "real" time. If I get hit I drill...drill....drill. I don't have a glass jaw so I don't mind at all. In fact it kind of spices up the drill.
Pain is weakness coming out. USMC.
Also, watching the lead elbow/knee helps. I always expect a feint strike. In fact I love when that happens...grin. I have some students in Canada that are boxers. I train with them also.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

About the bong sao against the jab - have done it many times- only works from the parallel position (ie. - my right leg lead vs. his left leg lead...with my foot placed slightly to the outside of his foot).

You must move toward him with an extended bong sao/wu sao as he begins to throw the punch...IT IS USED TO JAM HIM UP...and set him up for the transition to lop sao.

How do I know he will throw the jab ? Because I'm watching his elbows and knees - especially his lead elbow.

[russellsherry]

]
hi guys merry xmas good topic, hi nick liked your repey about trapipng one, should never seek to trap in wing chun it should just happen, also my number one rule i dont regard fakes as fakes, i regard them as strikes and if someone moves i hit him simple as that, peace and merry xmas from close range combat australia russellsherry

[KenWingJitsu]

i dont regard fakes as fakes, i regard them as strikes and if someone moves i hit him simple as that,

RUssell,...I like that

Victor, question. "How do I know he will throw the jab ? Because I'm watching his elbows and knees - especially his lead elbow." What if you see his elbow move and he wasnt going to jab with it...it wa just moving..yet you bong sau........

or...you see his elbow move, you move to do the bong-sao, but...it's not a jab? say you thought it would be a jab, but his elbow 'deceived' you...and he threw a hook instead?

Phil

I simply mean covering an area without over extending.

1) Are you "covering an area" in anticipation of him striking? Or are you covering in response to his strikes? ( I think one of those would be 'chasing')

2) When you say "covering" like a boxer, are you covering "gates" to shield the incoming strikes? If so, I have something to add here....

[old jong]

...IMO, if "you" can see an elbow move or any beginning of an attack or,feint; attack! ...Why should you do a bong,boxing cover... or any other defensive motion?...
Break whatever the guy is trying ,take over his timing and punch him in the face.That is Wing Chun.
Tabarnak!...

[Ultimatewingchun]

KWJ (Dhira):

Good question...I see the elbow moving toward me - it looks like a jab - I start moving toward it with AN EXTENDED BONG/WU (kiu sao range)...

... and he turns it into a hook !

I must immediately turn the bong sao into a lop sao - HITTING (striking and grabbing) THE INSIDE of his punching elbow - while changing my direction (slightly) so as to have my centerline now face his elbow... and turning the wu sao into a punch to his face. (The punch to the face comes from you could call your shoulder-line)...

...but the technical term for it in TWC is: The Central Line.


Skill at this kind of thing is developed by constantly drilling - ie.-"making" the eyes learn to obey TO STAY FOCUSED ON THE ELBOW...(of course it's really the mind that is being trained...not the eyes).

[Phil Redmond]

>>1) Are you "covering an area" in anticipation of him striking? Or are you covering in response to his strikes? ( I think one of those would be 'chasing')<<

In response or anticipation. Depends on the circumstance. If I cover in anticipation then I have a setup planned. If my plan fails I cover in response. You can't win unless you attack. I prefer to fight offensivley as much as I can and to act and re-act randomly.
I trained with JHR guys by placing one heel against a wall and covering random bare knuckle shots thrown and my body and head while never moving my heel off the wall. I got a pretty good sense of how to cover myself. Of course I got hit sometimes. But if you can cover blows while standing against a wall it's easier when you can use footwork.

>>2) When you say "covering" like a boxer, are you covering "gates" to shield the incoming strikes? If so, I have something to add here....<<

Maybe I shouldn't have said like a boxer since I'm not.

[yuanfen]

Victor sez:
... and he turns it into a hook !
I must immediately turn the bong sao into a lop sao - HITTING (striking and grabbing) THE INSIDE of his punching elbow - while changing my direction (slightly) so as to have my centerline now face his elbow... and turning the wu sao into a punch to his face. (The punch to the face comes from you could call your shoulder-line)...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Different perspectives...
FWIW/IMO...you (generic you)could be one step behind the other guy in terms of timing.
But since I dont do TWC- I dont "watch" the elbow- though the elbow is terribly important in wc mechanics.

[foolinthedeck]

anyone who says that they dont chase the hands is bad wing chun
anyone who says your shouldnt chase the hands is bad wing chun!!

why?

because you can only learn from experience, no one can teach you anything ( thank you sifu for teaching me niothing!), so the best thing is to chase the hands because it is held to be wrong and find out for yourself if and why and develop from there.

eventually your hands work out what is best,

"once the trench has been dug,
the water can only flow into it.
Talking about the trench
only slows down the digging."

[KenWingJitsu]

Victor, I agree with yaunfen on this one...you will be one step behind to catch the hook...whereas had you gon into his center, you could have nulified it.....I guess old jong can make an intelligent statement once in a blue moon even if it happens once every 3 years.....

I trained with JHR guys by placing one heel against a wall and covering random bare knuckle shots thrown and my body and head while never moving my heel off the wall.

Phil, remember where I said I might have something to add, THIS IS IT. I do the same drill. Interesting eh? lol. Nice. I have several progressions for it, variations I've picked up from a boxing coach and a Muay Thai guy. Now this conversation is about to get interesting.
The reason i'm about to ask this question is I have "one" answer, but I'm not sure yet if it's the "best" answer, so i want to see where you apply this drill in sparring.

When? When you've lost control of him and he's wailing on you? When he attacks,? when would you 'cover'. (which by the way to me is a VERY viable alternative, and very different from "blocking"- more on that later).

[Phil Redmond]

That's a hard one. I can only speak from a few experiences I had. Once I got clocked and was sort of out of it but the barrage kept on coming. Had I punked out I would have been dissed by the guys in my barrio. Especially since they knew I studied the "arts".
All I could do was cover until I got my senses back which eventually happened. Sometimes the rules were no hitting back. All you were allowed to do was cover, bob, and weave. They do this in the joint (Rikers Island) a lot. That's what makes JHR fighters fearless of getting hit. When allowed I could parry and counter

[Ernie]

dhira and phil
can i chime in

i was introduced to that type of drill from a bkf kenpo friend of mine , back to the wall feet planted and getting fired on from up close and then entry's

later by my boxing coach hands tied behind my back and just head and waist movment

but the most interesting version is with weapons were you have to stick and knife spare '' counter for counter '' with you feet planted on the ground , talk about twisting body mechnics

the blade really bought a cat like quickness

when i went back to empty hands they seemed slow

just adding a thought