"Chasing Hands".....

[KenWingJitsu]

OPhil, took me a while to reply...holidays & stuff but...

Once I got clocked and was sort of out of it but the barrage kept on coming. Had I punked out I would have been dissed by the guys in my barrio. Especially since they knew I studied the "arts".

OMG! you mean you got hit! Well, your wing chun must suck. beacuse wing chun is perfect in every way and if you got hit, wing chun didnt fail you, you failed wing chun, Now you must pay penance.......

lol. As you can guess the above is my 'commentary' on the predominant mindset around here. Enough on that for now.

First off kudos for talking about what seems to be tabboo around here....what to do when the 'ish hits the fan.
Second I just wanted to say. HELL YEAH! That is EXACTLY when i would use the 'cover' also. I just wanted to see where you'd use it, because it's fairly new to me and I wanted to figure out where it would fit into the scheme of things. I settled on what I call the "oops I f@cked up" range...either I got hit, I let him get too close, or I didnt control him enough to prevent him from firing first. that's when I'd use it - till I 'recover'. The it's either to the clinch or back to range once I've cleared my head, and then it's (hopefully) hammer time.

Nice. And by the way, the way you described training that drill is EXACTLY the way I learned it from a phenomenal boxing coach I happened to come across......

[Ultimatewingchun]

Dhira:

Regarding the hook punch: It's the same situation you and I recently discussed concerning defending the double-leg takedown....

At a very close distance I agree with you and Joy - go straight in.

At a slightly longer range - quickly turn your centerline to face the blow while blocking with lop or biu...stronger block - you'll need it because he now has more power coming at you.

Punch back on your shoulderline (central line).

[mun hung]

Watching the elbow of a jab will only serve in getting oneself knocked out or brain damage. jab jab jab jab

What happens when you can't see the elbow? jab jab jab jab

Bong sau/wu sau a jab? Then lop sau? jab jab jab jab

I'll gladly pay you a hundred dollars if you can do that to my jab and I'm not even close to being a boxer.

[Phil Redmond]

Hey Hung Mun, I know it's a long time from now but I'll be in NJ when my Sifu comes in April or May. I always got to Brooklyn to visit with my kids when I go back east. I mean no disrepect but I guarantee that I could either redirect your jab or at the least cover the path of it. We could even try a jab hook with the same arm. My advantage will be that I know you're throwing it.That's why I'll take your bet. Since you offered I could probably use the hundred bucks in the city. Then we could have lunch. I'll PM you my cell number just before I go to let you know when I'll be in the city.
Phil

[Keng Geng]

My money's on Mun Hung.

[mun hung]

First off - my apologies if I've hijacked this thread in any way, but this is getting interesting.

Respect the jab. It is one of the most difficult punches to deal with - especially from anyone who can throw a good one or two or three. jab jab jab jab

Phil - I have no doubt in my mind that you can "protect" yourself from a jab using a bong/wu combination. Covering the path of a jab is easy. Even redirecting it isn't too difficult. I could effectively protect myself from jabs all day long in the fetal position. Making the person throwing the jab pay dearly for it is an entirely different story. You must earn my hundred bucks doing it Victor's way.

Victor's solution for the jab was to step in with a bong sau/wu sau combination, "jam" the punch and then lop sau. In my very humble and experienced opinion - this would be a grave mistake. I would never walk into a jab and try to intercept it with a bong sau/wu sau attempting to "jam" the punch unless my intention was to get knocked out. Trying to lop it afterwards??? The bong sau "jam" only works in a certain range and jabbing distance aint one of them. jab jab jab jab

My solution? Coverage and timing.

I will now proceed to Gleasons Gym to work on my terrible jab until April/May and watch all the Rocky movies again and again. I can see myself running thru Chinatown while Chinese grocers throw bok choy at me. (flyinggg high nowww...)

[Phil Redmond]

Gleason's near the old Felt Forum and MSG? I trained there in the 70's
I personally would not use the bong wu against a jab but that's me. My student's in Ontario train at a boxing gym also. These guys are fast. They make me work big time.
Some one on the forum offered to put up videos on a server? for me. If he does I'll post some clips of how fast and dynamic these guys are and some WC solutions. I sent ernie a clip of one method against a jab. I'd like to share it with all if i can put up clips here.

[mun hung]

I just started to set up my server rack tonite, and would be happy to let you use it for any videos clips you might want to share. I should be up and running by next week.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mun hung:

You don't have to pay me...Just don't sue me if I hurt you.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Mun Hung:

Since I see you are serious about the defending and attacking the jab...I'll say a bit more about the bong-to-lop scenario:

I don't expect to grab the jab with lop sao and hold it while I punch you with the other hand...

The lop I'm referring to is one in which the lopping motion disapppears very quickly (it's simply meant to redirect the blow)...and my other hand then pins (gum sao) your jabbing elbow, at which point -

the hand that lopped will become the first strike that I will throw.

The key to the whole thing is THE FORWARD PRESSURE.

I will come in from the parallel position (ie. - my right leg leads vs. your leading left leg), and I will be stepping up on the outside of your lead leg.

The forward pressure I referred to will serve to jam you up...TAKE YOUR SPACE AWAY...in terms of your ability to follow up with punches...So I will be using very aggressive footwork.

I would be more than happy to show you what I mean in person sometime.

P.S. - I might also decide to use a different initial move other than
bong/lop - such as pak/cheun (underneath biu sao)...depending on exactly how you throw the jab....at which point the original pak hand will strike you first; OR the pak hand will become the gum sao that I described earlier....etc....depending upon whether or not you decide to move away (ie.- backwards) after the initial pak/cheun.

[hunt1]

Thanks to all for the chuckles! For the challenge to be fair and a reasonable test of combat the two parties should begin from contact range. No boxer worth his salt is going to throw a jab unless he is within striking distance. Far,far,far to many people practice from unrealastic distances. So if Mun Hung starts from a distance where is jab can land without overeaching things should be very interesting.

[Phil Redmond]

hunt1 you're right.
Unless it's a sucker punch TWC starts with an extended guard at the onset of an encounter, (look at the guard on my site). That way the opponent has to either take a step or over extend to hit me. Of course in a clench things are different.
I train against one and multiple random jabs.

[Ernie]

phil sent me some clips last night were he was working of a jab , looked like a pak to a tan da combination depending on the jabs intent jab double jab , or jab to a hook line .

phil was crispy and relaxed , his timing and control of space was very clean .

he has obviously worked off high quality boxers , could tell by the reaction and footwork , that only comes from real practice and really shutting skilled people down and really getting hit when you don't


i've said it before and i'll say it again [body mechanics don't lie]

[mun hung]

(quote)originally posted by Ultimatewingchun
"You don't have to pay me...Just don't sue me if I hurt you".

That's what she said.

[Abstract]

my money i$ on mun hung...

wattap man, btw....

ultimate...you can't really 'pin' a jab. a boxer trains so that punch is automatically retracted almost as soon as it's thrown...and can be done so multiple times to set the opponent up for something hurtful

and truthfully, forward pressure or not, you'll walk into a hook or eat an uppercut if you miraculously pin someone's jab...

mun hungs answer was on the money, coverage & timing