Can a high school wrestler beat the average martial artist?

[MonkeySlap]

Every time. This is an O-o-o-o-ld aurgument of mine. They train harder, have tactile confidence, and kids todat have learned about slipping kicks and punches just from watching TV.

I've been saying this for twenty years and I still think it is true. Even if you have 'better' technique, if you do not train at least as hard and as often, the odds are against you.

And in the average fight the wrestler has the advantage.

Any bites?

What you say is true, because the average martial artist is not an athlete, while the average wrestler will be quite athletic, and wrestling is a very rough, demanding, tough sport/art. this and as you said, the competitive mindedness of a wrestler will give them an incredible edge. this isn't going to hold true everytime, but on average I'd say it's a safe bet.

[MonkeySlap]

As Vitor said. As CMA folks, it's up to us to train with this kind of fervor. Otherwise we are gonna get stomped by some kid who's wet behind the ears.

[totallyfrozen]

I think that any style can be effective BUT it requires the practitioner to "master" it. I don't mean become a recognized Master..I mean to learn the system and make it become second nature. For example:
I think that Mike Tyson could whip the average Karate or Kung Fu practition found in your average school any day. But I think that Bruce Lee would have killed Mike Tyson in a fight..and I think that Chuck Norris could kill him too.
Royce Gracie is a grappler...but he has beaten men of nearly every style in the UFC fights.
Why? Because these men have mastered their styles. A highschool wrestler could beat the average guy on the street...but most likely could not beat Royce Gracie (or Chuck Norris for that matter).
I think that any system which is well rounded and has some serious techniques can be deadly effective in the hands (and feet) some someone who has seriously learned the style and has "mastered" it in him/her self.
As far as the AVERAGE wrestler and the AVERAGE martial artist (by the way..I'm of the opinion that both boxing and wrestling are martial arts..but that's a personal view)...well...that depends is the "average" martial artist either knows how to fight on the ground..or knows how to cosistently avoid going to the ground.
My boxing instructor (Western "American" boxing..not Chinese) had been in many a bar fight and even was attacked with a knife. Unarmed against a knife, he literally bunched the assailants left eye right out of his head. He had been attacked by grapplers and could punch so well that he was never taken to the ground...ever. He could knock out all the grapplers who came in close enough to try to get him (punch in the jaw or temple). He was the heavyweight state champ of Geogia for 6 years (back in the 60's). Willie Jay Johnson Jr. Was he the "average" boxer? well, maybe not. But I think the point is...a wrestler can beat anyone and anyone can beat a wrestler...it just depends who's faster and smarter, I guess.
And, yes, being is great shape is very important.

As we said, AVERAGE. I'm sure if your teacher ran into mark coleman in a bar his punches wouldn't keep him on his feet. but coleman isn't your average wrestler, just as your teacher isn't your average martial artist.

one question, how would you know in a bar if someone was a trained grappler or not if you knocked them out as soon as they were close to you. you also should remember that guys who don't grapple will try to tackle people, but that doesn't make them grapplers, just like a guy who punches isn't a boxer just because he punches.

[totallyfrozen]

Hmmm...well, I won't argue that. You have a point.
I guess the most I could say is the guys who tried to tackle him were put to sleep.

I guess that the actual question here is..."what is AVERAGE?"

[Tru-MA]

Hey guys, I've actually gotten into several fights with a high school wrestler, and I managed to defeat him most of the time. I'm not at all athletic (I'm 5'7" and weigh 170 lbs., mostly fat) but the reason I won most (I use the word most because I still got clobbered a few times) of the fights was because I knew his strengths and weaknesses. Kinda good advantage, eh? Once I fought him and he used a tackle and caught me off-guard but I was lucky enough to flow with it and counter with a hip throw (hehehe) and win the fight.

[ToughKey]

well, can a high school wrestler beat the average boxer. Even if all his hands-on ring training, if the boxer isn't prepare to defend himself against the simple takedown. Then it will be the wrestler committing the simple takedown, and then grounding, and pounding, end of story. This all has to be done in a pre-arranged fighting arena, of course. If a fight just breaks out on the streets, where the fists just starts flying, there may not be time for the wrestler to "shoot" for the waist.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Actually, I find it pretty easy to shoot for the waist, or even executing a standing throw in the street.

The problem is this: You have to devastate with your strike in order to stop the grappler. The grappler just has to cover up or time right to get past your strikes and take you down.

I would even argue that when you speak of timing and positioning, the striker really needs all the elements the grappler does, but usuually gets less 'bang' for his buck. -Note the emphasids on usually, as this is not always true.

[totallyfrozen]

I have to say although this question probably is one of those pointless ones like, "could God create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it", it is interesting to think about.
I would have to say that the AVERAGE highschool wrestler could beat the AVERAGE guy on the street. As far as the average boxer is concerned. It's been my experience that a highschool wrestler works out and practices his moves in the gym....the average boxer does the same. The whole point of joining a boxing club (just like a wrestling team) it to fight and compete. I don't think that you will find too many lazy, undeveloped boxers...like you might find of some of the people in a Karate dojo. The sytles of wrestling and boxing are very different and IMHO I think that it's hard to say how it would go. Boxers are trained to move quickly on their feet and to jump out of the way. Wrestlers are trained to try to grab you. I think it would end up being alot of "na na na you can't catch me" crap until someone got tired. If the wrestler is tough he might even take a few punches and just smile about it. Eventually, I think that unless they were outside with alot of room, the wrestler IS going to get a hold. That doesn't mean that he would win, though. Highschool wrestlers train to pin you...not to break your bones or choke you out. So what would he do? Sit on you until he got bored? Then he gets up and gets knocked out? Who knows. There is no answer to this...but it's fun to think about sometimes.

[totallyfrozen]

Although I have played the Devil's Advocate here, I have to say this: NO warrior is complete without at least SOME ground training. Nearly every fight ends up on the groung (unless you are so completely fast and powerful that you can simply knock a guy out in the blink of an eye...every time).
I would not want to fight the average highschool wrestler...even if he didn't have any training beyond school team wrestling. Actually, I don't want to fight anyone..but that's beside the point.
I think that anyone who doesn't have some grappling skills is going to lose most of his/her fights. Period.
I would say this, though, no matter what the guy is doing..he is using his hands. The faster you can break his hands or fingers the faster you are going to be able to have your way with him. Even a great wrestler needs to have a strong grip. If you can break his fingers and/or hands, he can't have a strong grip. Also, I have broken a thumb in boxing...breaking a bone in your hand hurts like hell...especially when you are still trying to use that hand in a fight (which I was). It's a quick way to discourage your opponent.
That's my humble opinion.

I guess I would focus on making sure that I didn't get choked, then I would focus on not getting my arms pinned, then I would make every effort to break his fingers as fast a possible (at the first opportunity I had)...then I'd have a better chance of escape.
By the way, let me just say...after all of my rantings about boxing, I am not that "above average" boxer who could knock out a wrestler. My coach was. I am not. A wrestler would kick my can. I have taken a little Brazilian JuJitsu but I still think that the average highschool wrestler could nail me.

Wrestling and boxing is a great combination. Both go hard at it and both train their asses off.

[LeviathanX]

Your typical high school wrestler, though, doesn't have the footwork or flexibility of a martial artist. The emphasis is much different... in wrestling it is very much a sport focusing on conditioning the body, but in a real fight people tend to lose control and act without thinking. A good martial artist primarily focuses on the mind, and can take advantage of the mistakes a wrestler makes in this situation.

Personally, I would train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu over wrestling because of the more advanced ground-fighting skills involved.

[nospam]

Why does 'in an average fight the wrestler has the advantage'?

I don't follow that one. I also think more and more, the 'average' martial school is incorporating more an dmore total body/conditioning activities.

Guess it depends on your call on what 'average' means. But..hmmm, who would come out on top? I would say the martial artist. Why? They are used to taking shots and giving shots. The a'average' wrestler doesn't get popped everyother workout. This could be exploited.

More specifically, I think the wrestler's tactics are an oversight on the average martial artists practise routine. Having someone bail in and bare down on you, caring little for any strikes or kicks, can be a surprise if you have not incorporated this type of scenario in your training.

Over all...a good question to mull around. Good post.

[LeviathanX]

A few posts ago someone mentioned the UFC fighters. Besides Royce Gracie and maybe Ken Shamrock, I can tell you that most of the fighters there are amateurs and would be destroyed by a true master practitioner.

And about Mike Tyson... he is like Tiger Woods - he has an innate ability to do what he does, but at this point in time Tyson is more animal than man - his judgement would be greatly reduced in a real fight and I think an experienced martial artist could take him out if they were fast enough to avoid being hit. If you get hit by Tyson you are going down. I think it would be an awesome fight to see Tyson versus a Royce Gracie or a Chuck Norris (although Chuck is a bit old right now).