Can a high school wrestler beat the average martial artist?

"I don't follow that one. I also think more and more, the
'average' martial school is incorporating more an dmore total
body/conditioning activities."

No offense, but it is obvious that you have never wrestled. If you had, you wouldn't have said that.

"A few posts ago someone mentioned the UFC fighters.
Besides Royce Gracie and maybe Ken Shamrock, I can tell you
that most of the fighters there are amateurs and would be
destroyed by a true master practitioner."

My friend, you fail to realize that Royce Gracie is at the bottom of the barrel in NHB now. To call the top NHB fighters of today amateurs is a sign of ignorance on your part. Todays fighters are ten times the fighters that were around in Royce's hayday. Until I see a "master practitioner get in the ring and actually kick a top NHB fighters ass what you are saying is garbage. They have never entered after watching their cronies get their asses handed to them in easy fashion, so it would be more reasonable to say that a top NHB fighter would rip a praying mantis kung fu master limb from limb. I'm not knocking those arts, but to think they could take out these world class fighters is insane, and there is absolutly nothing to back up your claim, only evidence to the contrary.

[origenx]

Wrestler's have a lot of practice and are good at what they do. But, like totallyfrozen said, remember that wrestling is a sport and therefore they don't learn finishing moves like chokes or armbars. Therefore, they'd probably be pretty good at gettin you down, but wouldn't know what to do once they got you there.

Let me tell you, my wrestling coach has twisted me into new shapes and forms that made me wish I was never born. And besides, in a fight chances are you are going to just pound on the guy once you have him down, after all, when's the last time you saw a fight finish with an armbar?

[rmata2001]

Your question is "Can a high school wrestler beat the average martial artist?"

Since you're asking for opinions and pov's, I will share mine. 9 out of 10 times, the high school wrestler, and I'll add boxers as well, will beat the crop out of the "average" martial artist. Why? Conditioning for one, knowledge and application of technique for another. Wrestlers and boxers, on a whole, train better than your "average" martial artist. They practice, drill, condition and hone what works until it's automatic, second nature to them. They train to hit and know what it's like to get hit.

[origenx]

vitor29 - true. A good ol-fashioned face-bashing ain't no picnic either...

[macdawg]

Wow, you think bruce Lee could take out Tyson? No way pal, First of all he is outsized, second of all he trains soley to land bombs on people's faces and would do the same to Lee, the only chance is a clinch and takedown and pound on him or break his arm or choke him. Average wrestler would kill the average McDojo guy because they train harder and have takedowns and could ground and pound those guys.

[Water Dragon]

Two words--Fireman's carry

[LeviathanX]

Mike Tyson knows one thing... how to box. He has zero strategic intelligence at this point, and is merely working on instinct and innate ability. Mike Tyson is NOT omnipotent... remember the Evander Holyfield fight? Bruce Lee, on the other hand, was a master of strategy and had a much wider repetoire than Tyson.

Personally, I believe Bruce Lee could take a few hits from Tyson before he went down. Bruce used to get in street fights all the time, and would ALWAYS win. He could take a hit.

Strategy almost always wins over brute force.

[origenx]

I think Bruce might have been outmatched inhis first encounter with Tyson. He would have stood a good chance of losing, or at least not dominating and having a draw. But, I think it might have become a revelatory experience like his fight against Wong Jack Man. He probably would have realized the limitations of superb athletic conditioning, when matched against another athlete of same or better. It might have spurred him into the internal arts more, in his continuing evolution as a martial artist. One thing that made Bruce such a champion fighter was his overpowering drive to become the best, and the ability to constantly find ways to achieve that. I think regardless of the outcome of his first match against Tyson, the result would have been that it would have only driven Bruce to find a way to beat him eventually, if at all possible.

Remember, in his last days, he had already progressed to the point where he was literally fighting pro-athlete giants (Kareem)! Ordinary men were already simply no match for him!

[origenx]

Also, keep in mind that in a streetfight, without gloves, you can actually break your hands when punching someone in the face. Which is what happened to Tyson when he got into a club fight. So, your boxing training can actually work against you somewhat...

[kungfuswack]

What a strange discussion. A high school wrestler or boxer IS a martial artist. Simply because it's traditionally european, and doesn't end in fu or do or bo doesn't disgualify it from status as a fighting system. I would highly suggest that every ryu karate and tae kwon do person, regardless of your belt, PLEASE, study wrestling, boxing, mui-thai, and jiu-jitsu, all MARTIAL ARTS with high emphasis on conditioning and hard sparring, and you'll be in a much better position in an actual fight.

[J.L.BLACKSTONE]

I DONT KNOW WHY THIS QUESTION IS KEEP BEING ASKED. UNLESS THE GRAPPLER IS VERY SPECIAL
A CHOP TO HIS CROTCH BEFORE GOING DOWN,WHILE GOING DOWN AND ONCE ONE ORIENTATES THEMSELF QUICKLY WHEN HITTING THE GROUND IS USUALLY
SUFFICIENT, THERE ARE ALSO CHOPS AND JABS
TO THE THROAT THIS DEPENDS ON YOUR .SITUATION AWARENESS; . IF THE GRAPPLER IS TOUGH AND FIT OR WHETHER ITS A DRUNK ECT.THE
DRUNK IS MORE DANGEROUS AS THEY CANT FEEL PAIN

"UNLESS THE GRAPPLER IS VERY SPECIAL
A CHOP TO HIS CROTCH BEFORE GOING DOWN,WHILE
GOING DOWN AND ONCE ONE ORIENTATES THEMSELF
QUICKLY WHEN HITTING THE GROUND IS USUALLY
SUFFICIENT"

Oh god, I love the way you make fighting a trained athlete seem so easy, it's always "just do this, just do that". You'll be in for a rude awakening if you ever find yourself in a real situation, because anyone who talks that way about a fight can't have ever been in a real one.

[origenx]

kungfuswack - good point - how often we forget that boxing and wrestling ARE martial arts. Except they've been somewhat watered-down into sports, but they still work well for what they're worth...

[totallyfrozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeviathanX:

Personally, I would train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu over wrestling because of the more advanced ground-fighting skills involved.[/quote]

I agree on that one...if those are your choices. I studied Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for little while. The problem that I have with it is...usually if you are attacked, the cowardly nerd attacking you has a friend or two and usually (almost everytime) you aren't going to get to fight someone while everyone else stands around and watches (unless you are in a school yard during recess or something). Usually, you will have to fight 2 or more people at once. Grappling doesn't allow for this.

My instructor was a South American man, in his early 60s, about 5'6" or so...near 200lbs. Once while he was fishing, last summer, he was harrassed by a couple of G.I.s (I live in Anchorage, Alaska and we have an Army base here "Fort Richardson"). The young soldier (early 20's) agreed to follow my instructor to a small, flat grassy area away from the river bank and they fought while the soldier's friend (another soldier) stood back and watched. The soldier had appearently taken some wrestling in school or something. My instructor ended up beating him (with a choke)...but it took 8 minutes. This fight was a total freak accident if you ask me.

My instructor is lucky that the other soldier didn't get into with him also, not to mention they could have pulled a knife on him.

In my opinion, my instructor was lucky. The only reason that the fight worked out the way it did is because they were soldiers and it was the old "honor" thing....2 warriors in a battle to see who the best man was. Had my instructor been jumped by street punks, I doubt he would have had the luxury to grapple for 8 minutes with one man.

Needless to say, I don't study that art anymore...I didn't believe that it was practical for the street in a modern society.
Besides, you can't always lead your prey to a grassy knoll to fight and a back full of sharp gravel can be your worst enemy sometimes.

Also, although this story may be interesting...remember...it was a one-in-a-million chance. Most people, soldiers included, wouldn't stand around watching you beat their friend. My instructor was lucky.
He might not be next time.

[This message has been edited by totallyfrozen (edited 08-16-2000).]