Can a high school wrestler beat the average martial artist?

[totallyfrozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vitor29:

"A few posts ago someone mentioned the UFC fighters.
Besides Royce Gracie and maybe Ken Shamrock, I can tell you
that most of the fighters there are amateurs and would be
destroyed by a true master practitioner."

My friend, you fail to realize that Royce Gracie is at the bottom of the barrel in NHB now. To call the top NHB fighters of today amateurs is a sign of ignorance on your part. Todays fighters are ten times the fighters that were around in Royce's hayday. Until I see a "master practitioner get in the ring and actually kick a top NHB fighters ass what you are saying is garbage. They have never entered after watching their cronies get their asses handed to them in easy fashion, so it would be more reasonable to say that a top NHB fighter would rip a praying mantis kung fu master limb from limb. I'm not knocking those arts, but to think they could take out these world class fighters is insane, and there is absolutly nothing to back up your claim, only evidence to the contrary.[/quote]

You make some very good points and I like you post. Let's remember that while the UFC is pretty brutal it is still a sport (i.e. there are rules). Some of the rules include: No eye gouging
No biting
No strikes to the croch.
No wearing rings or jewelry
These are attacks that WOULD be used in a actual streetfight. I would say that most of the kung-fu "masters" (especially the old ones) have spent their lives training for actual fights not sport fights. Sure they are tough and fast..but eye gouging, bites, and croch hits are very real, very effective attacks.
UFC is brutal and tough...but still a sport. For example, Rocye Gracie wouldn't have been able to do some of the things he did if he got bit, hit in the chimes, or poked in the eyes. Grappling gets you in VERY close...biting range.
I'm sure that those guys wear nut cups...but who wears a nut cup walking down the street? If the UFC wanted to be a real fight..they would have rules like:
No gi or uniform...only street clothes (denim jeans are much tighter than a gi)
No nut cups
No mouth pieces
No tape on your hands
No stopping the fight when you bleed

UFC is a sport.

[This message has been edited by totallyfrozen (edited 08-16-2000).]

[totallyfrozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.L.BLACKSTONE:
THE DRUNK IS MORE DANGEROUS AS THEY CANT FEEL PAIN[/quote]

Well, I don't mean to sound like I'm talking down to you but...I spent a few years as an EMT (Emergency Medical Technician). One of the jobs I had was to "babysit" drunks in the city's "drunk tank". We used to ride around in a van and pick up people who were drunk in public (usually the homeless as the "normal" folks had homes to go to and could catch a cab).

Drunks are definitely NOT more dangerous. I found them to be much easier to defend against than a sober person. Drunks are disoriented...even while standing still. They are VERY slow. They are easily confused (as they are halfway confused right from the start since they are drunk).

We often had to fight in self defense because NO BODY likes to be "arrested" off the street and detained against their will until they are sober.

The hardest "drunk" that I had to fight, while I was a medic, was a guy who was on methanphetamine (speed). This guy was very hyped and aggressive. I hadn't taken any BJJ (Brazilian JuJitsu) then. I hadn't taken anything but some American boxing. He was quite a bit taller than me and heavier too. He made a grab for me and I had to act fast. I pulled him to me with the arm he grabbed me with and, since I was shorter, this made him bend over. I wrapped my arm over his head (a headlock) so that his head was behind me and his body in front. Then I just quickly laid down on my stomach (so that he was face down on the floor...on his stomach also). Our heads were together and our feet at opposite ends. Then I simply brought the other arm over and put him in a good old Japanese choke hold (you know, your standard JuiJitsu choke). I was able then to twist my right forearm like a valve to give him air or cut if off. Since my feet were opposite of his, for him to sit or stand up, he would have had to raise my entire body (150lbs at the time) with his neck...no way he could do that. I choked him and when he tapped out, I told him that if he didn't sit still while my team put leather restraints on his hands and feet that I would just twist my arm again and turn his air off. It only took one demonstration of what I was talking about for him to realize that I could do it and that he was screwed. That was the end of that one. We locked him in restraints and kept him until the police arrived and took him to jail.
I basically shut him down with 2 moves.
Yes, drunks feel pain...and everybody needs air.

Be careful if you ever DO have to choke out a drunk. Their body systems are slowed down by the alcohol and if they are super drunk...they might not start breathing again on their own. Only choke them enough to get submission or a chance to escape...because their bodies systems are slow and weak they are easy to kill...especially if you interrupt their air flow or heart beat pattern. This means that "sleeper" holds are dangerous too. I'm not saying don't fight if you have to...I'm just saying don't kill if you don't have to...don't be sloppy or mean and kill someone if you don't absolutely HAVE to.
I'm not sh*tting you on this!

There are some drugs which will deaden pain. PCP is one of them (also called "Angel Dust"). If you are confronted and you KNOW that the person is on PCP...don't try to fight them just run and call the cops. PCP is an elephant tranquilizer and when humans use it, it causes a number of bad things. Some of the bad things are the feeling of being Superman, the feeling of being able to fly, not feeling any pain, being abnormally (almost inhumanly) strong among other things. We had a guy on PCP here a few years back (I'm 30) and it took 6 police officers and 2 paramedics to hold this guy down so he could be strapped to the gurnie. PCP users have been stabbed, hit with sticks, even shot and didn't notice it. The are extremely strong while on PCP.
Honestly, don't try to fight that guy...you need alot more manpower to control 'em. Just run fast and call the cops.

Once again, I apologize if I sounded like I was talking down to you or giving you the "father knows best" lecture. That was not my intention.

Take Care.

[This message has been edited by totallyfrozen (edited 08-16-2000).]

[totallyfrozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macdawg:
Wow, you think Bruce Lee could take out Tyson? No way pal, First of all he is outsized, second of all he trains soley to land bombs on people's faces and would do the same to Lee, the only chance is a clinch and takedown and pound on him or break his arm or choke him.
[/quote]

I don't want to insult your knowledge but you sound as though you've never seen Bruce Lee in action.
There is a documentary video (the name escapes me and I'm too lazy to run down stairs and look for it now) which shows Bruce Lee at a national karate demonstration in the late 50's. This is where he demonstrates the "floating punch" (the "one inch punch"). It's not a fairy tale or a rumor...it's on video you can see it.
Bruce Lee was 5'8" and 150lbs. and I watched him on this documentary video kick a 300lbs heavy bag up to the ceiling that it was hanging from. I also watched him "one inch punch" a 200lbs or so man and knock him back 6 feet.
In a nutshell, I'm saying that Bruce Lee could have punched just as hard as Mike Tyson and probably could have done it much, much faster.
Watch the video before you decided that Bruce Lee was fake, average, or whatever.

Bruce Lee was an honest to goodness bad ass and on this documentary were a number of interviews. One of the interviews was with the grandmaster of Tae Kwon Do (I don't recall his name now...you'll have to watch it). He said..flat out...that he would NEVER be willing to step into the ring with Bruce Lee. And this was the grandmaster of Tae Kwon Do!

Bruce Lee was not simply a movie star like Jackie Chan....he could and did win ALOT of streetfights in his day. In fact, the way he came to America was because after (and before, actually) he studied Wing Chun with Yip Man, he was a gangbanger and got into alot of trouble with the law in Hong Kong for fighting so his father sent him to live with his uncle in Seattle for awhile (if my memory serves me right). Bruce Lee was a real streetfighter and not a phony or just a choreograped (spell that right?) movie fighter.

Do your homework.

[totallyfrozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kungfuswack:
What a strange discussion. A high school wrestler or boxer IS a martial artist. Simply because it's traditionally european, and doesn't end in fu or do or bo doesn't disgualify it from status as a fighting system. I would highly suggest that every ryu karate and tae kwon do person, regardless of your belt, PLEASE, study wrestling, boxing, mui-thai, and jiu-jitsu, all MARTIAL ARTS with high emphasis on conditioning and hard sparring, and you'll be in a much better position in an actual fight.[/quote]


AMEN! I couldn't have said it better! [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[origenx]

totallyfrozen - I'd like to know the name of that Bruce Lee documentary so I can go buy it. Mind lookin at it for me next time you go downsatirs?

Yeah, kickin a 300-lb bag up to the ceiling is f*ckin impressive. I would really like to see that!

BTW - I think I've used that same "guillotine" choke more or less on someone in class - except I ended up layin side-by-side with him. it still worked, tho...

And good point about choking/killing someone. One thing we were taught in wrestling class is how to revive someone in case they black out after you choke them. It's fairly simple - you sit them up and massage deeply up and down their chest/lungs (while stooped behind them). However, it can mean saving the guy's life. I think they should teach that first in every class before they teach you how to choke someone out.

Yes, the UFC is most definitly a sport.

"Rocye Gracie wouldn't have been able to do some of the
things he did if he got bit, hit in the chimes, or poked in the
eyes."

Actually, nut shots were allowed when Royce competed. Another thing, biting and clawing eyes doesn't take skills. So if these guys have to resort to these tactics then it would just expose the holes in their art, right?

[totallyfrozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vitor29:
...if these guys have to resort to these tactics then it would just expose the holes in their art, right?[/quote]

Well, I don't actually think so. Fighting is fighting...combat is combat. If you limit what you will let yourself do, then you are making holes in your own art, I believe.
Let me make one thing clear; however, I am not advocating killing someone unnecessarily. If you do...even if you HAVE TO you will most likely go to prison.
True, biting and eye gouging might not be considered "skills" but they are effective tactics. I'm not sure that using them indicates a weak point in a style. Bruce Lee seemed to think that they were accpetable weapons...he even mentioned tickling once (to get out of a hold during a grapple).

[Highlander]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vitor29:
Another thing, biting and clawing eyes doesn't take skills. So if these guys have to resort to these tactics then it would just expose the holes in their art, right?[/quote]

The skill in Kung Fu is not in the technique or the target. The skill is in the ability to flow from one technique to another and to find a target from any position. (This is over simplified for the sake of this discussion.) A Kung Fu person would not attack with the intent of doing a forearm strike to the groin, but if he found himself with his forearm trapped between an opponents knees, he might shoot it upward and strike. If a Kung Fu person found himself with both arms tied up but one hand near the eye, he might gouge the eyes to escape. The skilled Kung Fu person is taught to take what is given. The skill isn't the ability to gain position for a strike, it is to strike from any position. Therefore, eliminating targets and techniques create safe zones where a Kung Fu person can be manipulated into a position where they can't strike. Additionally, even though using these safe zone in the ring is quite legit, the person using them must be aware that they are at risk on the streets in these positions.

By the way, this isn't a "Why Kung Fu doesn't enter the UFC", or "Why they don't do well in NHB" post. I am not trying to make excuses, I am just stating one Kung Fu persons position on these types of strike and their usefulness. So please don't make this post into something it's not.

I gets me is when people act as if only these stand up fighters can bite. I guarentee you, if I have you down and you bite me, you will get it back worse. Biting and clawing are not legitimate escapes, if you don't get the desired reaction then you have just given the other guy an idea. Not a smart thing to do when he is controlling you.

[kungfuswack]

Vitor29, according to Tom Cruse, who's seminar I attended a few months ago, biting should only be attempted when you're in control of your opponent, like a tight clinch or a hugging guard, especially his head, for obvious reasons, or if his head is far enough away from you to not be a major bite threat, like if you screw up a double leg take down, but have him around the waste. If he's strong, you're in bad shape, but a hard, ripping bite to a love handle or uggg, pec, could free you up for a second, for some knees and elbows. Also, a bite is best if it's prolonged, he recomended 10 seconds at least, rips open skin, and is used as a shock, to get some pain and lots of blood going, then followed up with, and probably part of a more destructive flurry of knees, elbows and punches. Also, I think the assuption is that, in the street, you don't need to give your opponant ideas, he's got them already, you can just beat him to the punch, so to speak. I don't know if it would work, but I definatly don't think it's a "work all the time, anytime" type of thing.

[origenx]

Hey, tickling or pinching when wrestling can work sometimes!

I'd be hesitant about biting someone these days - especially with AIDs and Hep C floating around everywhere...

[yungak]

Bruce Lee VS Any wrestler. Hmmm tough call.

[shimera]

this is what i don't like about, the way your average MA education goes... i call it Americanization. the process most arts have gone through to be made easier to learn for fat slobbering americans. they focus entirely on physical stuff like learning they ignore understanding... and why do you do something if you aren't going to do it right? why don't they do real conditioning? reasons? becuase its sports now.. they meet 3 times a week for an hour every week...

i think that traditionally practioner's of MA have put allot more into physical conditioning than what most do today.

me personally i train hard every day by running several miles then spending several hours going through forms and practicing other stuff to help me improve my strength, endurence, and reaction times. plus i lift weights for an hour every day.

[uchi mata]

I dont think a high school wrestler would win a fight over a kung fu guy more times than not.Lets say for entertainment purposes a division one wrestler vs. a kung fu guy.Well someone is going to get taken down and beaten 9 times out of 10.They train LIVE full boar no forms or whatever they run tremendous distances and do lots of power lifting.My money is on the d1 wrestler every time.

[shimera]

yes but if the martial artist is trained the same way then the tables should be turned. thats why i think that if more martial artist took their training seriously this argument wouldn't even exist. besides... if you keep the wrestler at kicking range you should be allright. they aren't used to that kind of thing.... just don't let him get you on the mat.