Can a high school wrestler beat the average martial artist?

"besides... if you keep the wrestler at kicking range you should be allright. they aren't used to that kind
of thing.... just don't let him get you on the mat"

And KF guys aren't used to defending takedowns, it's a lot harder to keep a guy ffrom closing in on you than you make it seem.

"Granted the level of physical conditioning, speed, and technique is high among wrestlers, they do not
train to defend themselves against strikes, which gives the martial artist the advantage."

as I just said, KF and such arts don't train to defend against takedowns, which IMO puts them at a disadvantage.

[PeteB]

Shuai Jiao is about throwing and avoiding being taken down. If you go to any Shuai Jiao competition you'll see opponents constantly avoid takedowns (wether they be double legs, single legs, yes kung fu has those to). As for someone shooting in. At my kung fu school we practice sprawling to get away from takedowns (where it's necessary). We practice groundfighting (even have wrestlers in the class and we get together and "roll" for a little while). If you style is complete you'll have the knowledge to get away from those takedowns. If you get taken down you'll be able to defend yourself. As always, it just comes down to practice. [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif[/img]

When man is born he is soft and weak; When man dies he becomes stiff and hard. Thus, the stiff and unyielding follow death; The soft and yielding follow life.

[Jabe]

Mild,
No Im not sure. Because in any situation you can't really predict what is going to happen. I actually learned that in my first tournament this past weekend and what ever you plan on doing before the situation breaks out you do the complete opisite (Spelling?). So, to kind of re-state where I stand with it. I think that in this seneirio the wrestler would probably win. The training is just completely different. The mind-set is more geared to real situation fighting. A martial artist can't possibly train in a real environment because someone will end up either dead or in the hospital. I placed 4th in that tournament BTW
Jabe

[Dreamer]

A wrestler has a kind of all around training but what about a boxer. He isn't trained to avoid kicks, tackles, grappling, throwing and so on.
He is only trained in moving fast and boxing fast and hard. The Martial Artist would have an advantage but no one can tell who'd win.

I don't suffer from nsanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

"Kung Fu is technically superior but many exponents lack fighting experience."

JUST because they do katas and pretty looking moves doesn't make it technically superior.

"All it would take is a good stomp kick, dragon kick, pe
chin, or sword arm to stop someone at shooting in on you. "

Yes thats all. sounds easy, but it isn't that way in reality. Why do you rarely see a good shooter get stopped or even caught by a kick in NHB? Don't say "because the UFC is a sport" because kicks are perfectly legal. Sure it is possible, but it isn't likely.

" A wrestler
does empahsize alot of physical activities, but Martial Arts does as well if not even 10 times more."

Yeah right, you've obviously never wrestled in a serious club.

The bottom line is that we are talking AVERAGE here, and the truth of the matter is that the average M.Artist is a guy who just does it for a bit of activity a few days a week, but a wrestler trains hardcore because competition is everything, most of them aren't doing it just for a hobby

[Braden]

Kung fu doesn't defend against takedowns?

****... wish I could figure out what I was studying then.

[Braden]

[This message was edited by Braden on 11-06-00 at 03:10 AM.]

[GinSueDog]

As many of your Kung Fu brothers have said in the pass, San Shou is not Kung Fu, so those pictures don't count;) Actually, if all Kung Fu trained like that, or just the majority then we wouldn't even be discussing this.-ED [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

[Braden]

GSD - No, sanshou isn't kungfu. It's a training method used by kungfu systems. The above fighters are trained in systems such as xingyi and mantis, and are using sanshou as a training method. Every chinese system, taught in it's entirety, contains sanshou.

Sanshou "isn't kungfu" when people mix and match techniques and train in that "technique salad" specifically to compete in sanshou tournaments, rather than training in a kungfu system and using the sanshou as a training format. Not that it isn't good then; it just isn't kungfu. As you know, many people use non-chinese systems for sanshou, in this manner.

I think that clarifies my opinions as to whether or not those pictures count.

Regarding whether or not most kungfu practitioners practice their whole systems - I agree with your assessment of the situation. However, I don't see that this is a phenomena limited to kungfu, or even disproportionately prevalent in it.

I have personally seen clubs claiming to teach BJJ who actually taught nothing but rubbish, charged outrageous fees, and produced useless fighters. Ditto twice over for Muay Thai. Ditto a hundred fold for JKD. When confronted with these situations, BJJ-proponents (or whatever) usually reply, "Yes, but that's not BJJ. That's just someone ripping people off to get money, so it doesn't count."

But I feel the exact same way about bad kungfu schools.

-Braden.

P.S. For interest's sake, the top picture is of koushou, not sanshou. I would prefer to have made them all koushou, as I think sanshou is a little silly. Unfortunately, koushou doesn't have the popularity, and I couldn't find that many pictures. The difference between the two is that the koushou guys where grappler-style gloves, a groin cup, and boxing head gear with a pair of wires over the nose (sanshou guys wear those ridiculous boxer gloves, and they pad up like crazy on their shins and everything); also, koushou allows more techniques such as elbows and knees, not to mention the world of techniques opened up by ditching those silly mitts.

[Three_Eyed_Kronos]

hmmm, I'd say "yes" if you have a bit of speed. Keep your distance, everytime he tries to tackle you knee him in the head or elbow smash his temple. If he gets close then you're in some trouble though. And wrestlers shouldn't put more effort into training than someone learning Kung-Fu. You should be training ALL the time. If you can't be bothered, then don't think you're gonna win any more fights than you did when you weren't training and expect to be battered....

[MonkeySlap Too]

San Shou isn't Kung Fu? Talk about splitting hairs. Tell that to the Chinese military - they'll laugh buckets as they toss you around.

True San Shou is a viewed as a 'training' exercise by traditionalists (hey I agree), and I do prefer the ACSCA rules or Kuo Shu rules to San Shou rules, but San Shou by itself is pretty good stuff.

Also - all styles started as salad bar styles - a little of this, a little of that and a lot of training and experience. Only the need for secrecy and competitivness between groups combined with a touch of cult like behavior created this concept of a 'pure' style.

The evaluation is how effective is it, not what is it. The old Chinese masters thought this way, and we should not allow racial foolishness or a desire to define ourselves as something better than the next guy to prevent ourselves from seeing the truth right in front of us.

I am not oppossed to learning more no matter where the idea comes from. Why limit yourself?

***********************************************

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

[edziak]

A wrestler may be able to out grapple a martial artist and a boxer may be able to out punch a martial artist, but he can't defend against a simple low kick. That's a huge hole. Try walking, let alone fighting with a separated kneecap or a broken ankle.

The same goes for UFC fighters. What kind of reaction do you think a martial artist would get if he stepped into a ring and deliberatly shattered another fighters nuckles, destroyed one of his joints, struck for the eyes, or even kicked to the groin? Martial arts are designed to deal with actual situations involving people who want to do horrible things to you. Don't think that because a you don't see martial artists in NHB competions that they are chumps. Putting a martial artist in a ring, any ring, is about as realistic as asking me to do hirin sao with boxing gloves on. It's not a ligitmate test of the art or the artist.

Not that I mean any dissrespect to the Shamrocks or Gracies, those gus could kick my ass in a heartbeat [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

[Master Po]

Accually people get their joints messed up in MMA all the time. The first few that come to mind are Renzo Gracie getting his elbow dislocated by Sakuraba, John Lober getting his leg broke by Takata <sp>, and lots of broken hands. Also Sylva kicking Yevl <sp> in the groin last pride looked really painful. I totally agree that MMA is very different from a "fight for your life against all odds" type fight. MMA is much more fun [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img]

"he same goes for UFC fighters. What kind of reaction do you think a martial artist would get if he
stepped into a ring and deliberatly shattered another fighters nuckles, destroyed one of his joints, struck
for the eyes, or even kicked to the groin? Martial arts are designed to deal with actual situations
involving people who want to do horrible things to you."


You actually train by having people try to gouge your eyes out and break your joints? I didn't think so

[DragonzRage]

An average practitioner of legitimate martial arts will have a lot of useful REAL fighting technique. What wrestlers do is a bunch of BS that does not pertain to real fighting at all. I'm sorry, but there is simply no way you can pull off the "Stone Cold Stunner" or a moonsault body press in real fighting. Besides, wrestlers only know how to fake hit. They don't hit for real.

On the other hand, the average martial artist is also an average size guy of average strength. Average wrestlers, such as Stone Cold Steve Austin and Triple H are very big guys whose muscles are pumped to the max with steroid enhanced strength. That would be a hard obstacle for the average martial artist to overcome. That's all we can really say about this subject I think [img]/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif[/img]

You won't lose much if you go only halfway, but you won't win much either.