Jack of all trades, master of none?

[GOT'EM]

I don't think you necessarily have to do a lot of groundfighting to be complete.But if you have a way of defending or to counter against the groundfighter,then I feel that you can consider your art to be complete.The question was about wing chun.Wing chun fights at close range.In order to do that they practice at close range.That's why they are good.If they spent their time doing groundfighting then they would'nt be that good at close range.They have ways to defeat grapplers and long range fighters.But they do it using wing chun,not switching to chang chuan or bjj.You have to look at what your art(whatever art it is) and find those answers.A lot of the forms in mantis can help you find what to use in certain situations.They offer solutions using mantis techniques and principles,not do what the other guy is doing.Kicking mantis explained this very well earlier.If your answer is "do everything to defeat everything"(especially if it's popular at the time) then you truly are a jack of trades,master of nothing.

[SevenStar]

in the grand scheme of things, does it matter? If I can hold my own in a fight, I really don't NEED to be a master. As long as I have a solid foundation and obvious understanding of what I do, mastering a single style in itself is not a necessity. That said, most MA will indeed be a master of something - not a style necessarily, but a technique. they have that one technique that they can perform from any angle, off any feed, etc.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
You wont see a TKD student throw somebody. Its just not part of their curriculum. And the TKD guy you stated that throws punches, it should be expected, as TKD is a punch/kick style. What shouldnt be expected is a TKD student that will want to fight in a standing clinch, throwing knees and short quarter punches.

Not true. Style is an individual thing. I've got a TKD acquaintance who loves to hip throw - it's one of his favorite techniques. Last year, he won a local continuous sparring tourney, and won by using his hip throw.

[/B]

[KickingMantis]

Meat Shake. u said....

" Well, in this case, until the recent boom in BJJ, and the subsequent losses of many strikers in the early UFC's there were no complete arts. Before BJJ exploded onto the UFC, no one really trained against the shoot, its not part of many styles. Ground fighting is incorporated to VERY FEW styles. without ground fighting, is your style "incomplete"? Yes. But in this case, every style is incomplete, thus cross training and incoporation of technique is the only way to have a "full system".

Meat shake the reason so many people cross train, especially in the USA is because they are inpatient, unloyal, undisciplined and in a hurry to achieve something in a another style that they dont want to wait to learn in their own.

Now, for the serious martial arts student i can understand that they may want to learn something they think their style may lack, in my opinion MEATSHAKE, this is a big misconception.

If you stick around long enough in a particular style and be willing to learn the basics and master the basics...you will understand your style and see that it has more of what u need than less.

Most people that go from school to school in order to learn the best of them all, know nothing at all and couldnt make it through a 3 min round of sparring or touch hands let alone a 30 min workout of basic calistetheics. The ones i have seem come in and say i have a black belt in this, that and the other and pop in to attain another, can barely kick or punch correctly.

If you are serious in the martial arts u will build a firm foundation in ONE STYLE. And no it is not required that you master it. but when the basics are good and you have dedicated enough time in one system, the next teacher you go to can tell that you paid you paid your dues and worked hard and will be more willing to teach you the ESSENCE . than a student moving around from SCHOOL to SCHOOL, thinking they are learning all they need to know about the style in one year, that student hasnt even touched the surface of the art.

A bag of tricks to me is this...Aikido for a year, Tae Kwon Do for a year, BJJ for a year, Wing Chun for a year and etc., U have gained one thing......learned the bare basics of of many things and thats it. You have no idea of the true essences of any of those styles. Because most instructors, traditionalist anyways, are not gonna teach a guy off the street the essence of their system in a year or two.

What you have is four-five different methods of how to attack and defend that you really dont understand any of them thoroughly.

Im sure good Tae Kwon Do has ways to defend themselves on the ground just as many other styles.....the thing is very few students stay around long enough to learn it. So they leave with the idea of" oh i got my black belt but i dont really know this or that." its not the style its the person.

if you go to high school and u leave at grade 10 or 11, the reason u didnt learn chemistry II or III is becasue u didnt stay around long enough to finish the curriculum. Not because the school doesnt offer it.

[Vash]

This kind of relates to a conversation Yenhoi and myself were having in the Jeet Kune Do forum, the JKD = Art thread in particular .

Your argument seems to hearken to the need of a "purity" in training, that is, the study of one art at the ignorance of others.

Not dissing you, just trying to understand where you're coming from.

[KickingMantis]

most styles are not "pure" they all have borrowed from each other in order to make them what they are. I think that most arts are complete in the sense that historically old masters have did the majority of the work for us. they have proven their theories and techniques to work in particular situations if applied correctly and if it cant be applied one way you go with the flow and set the opponent up for another technique or theory/principle that may work in a situation.

Hell..even mantis is not a "pure" system. But the work has been done for us. If you are even a basic student and have learned bung bo then you know that bung bo contains the 12 basic key word formulas, as well as hard and soft techniques and a few other things...if you take just that alone, there is kicking, punching, Chin-Na, and Take Downs. it doesnt include ground fighting per se but once you understand the principles and theories behind the movements, learning to relax, flow with the opponent and etc you will realize they are the same (theory) on the ground and off.

As I have often been told, we are all on the same road, just different parts, Every one must travel the road at their own pace and as they wish.

if you think you need more to make you better, then u need more, i dont think i need more, i think i need to know more about what I know, that will make me better. I just seem to realize that answers are often there, we have yet to realize them.

[Vash]

Indeed. Good post.

[Ren Blade]

At my school all the grounds of combat are covered. Striking, kicking, takedowns/throws, and Chin Na (joint locks and cavity/pressure point attacks). When understanding how these are applied and very capable of applying these skills in stand up, can be applied to when off your feet and on your back or on top of your opponent. Trapping and sealing skills of stand up can be used on the ground. Like when standing up as you close in to attack your opponent, you block if he strikes and stick to that arm and seal their elbow by pressing it into them and immediately strike with your other hand. Or yanking down on their wrist and etc. Sealing someone's elbows makes it difficult for them to strike back or grab you or for them to pull off some counter or technique. Same on the ground. Sealing up their elbows and immediately follow up with your strike or Chin Na. And using your legs or hands depending where your position is to press or push their knees to keep them from wrapping their legs around you. Also if Chin Na principles are understood and one is capable of applying them stand up, Chin Na can be applied on the ground. If one is capable in Chin Na, then they know and which way to manipulate their opponent's joints and when someone is Chin Na capable, then it doesn't matter if standing up or laying down, Chin Na can be applied. Because Chinese Martial Arts is alive, it is adaptable to any situation. It will depend on the practitioner of the style what is practiced more, kicking or striking or Chin Na or throwing/takedowns. 2 people can practice the same Chinese Martial Art. One has proficiency in the kicking and the other could have proficiency in the Chin Na applying it standing up and flexible to use it on the ground. So it often does not depend on the style how one fights, but what tools of the style the practitioner decides to practice more. It's good to have abilities on all the ranges in combat. One of the tools of either the striking, kicking, Chin Na or takedowns will usually be strongest. But at the same time all practitioners should have some abilities in each even though one of those skills the practitioner is proficient in. But proficiency in all these skills is a must for the real fight is multidimensional and you never know what you'll have to do. So with the 4 previous mention skills, one should strive to be as flexible as they can in adapting those skills to whatever situation and whatever enviroment they're in. That includes weapons. Anyone proficient in many weapons and are capable of using them, then anything can become a weapon when a well trained Chinese Martial Artists grabs hold of anything.

If Chinese Martial Art school is incomplete and fails to teach their Chinese Martial Art style completely with one of the either striking, kicking, Chin Na, take downs is missing, then that school is incomplete and therefore that school is not a good Chinese Martial Art school and leaves their students no choice but to cross train with something else or find a better Chinese Martial Art school that is traditional enough to be complete in all ranges of combat.

Some Japanese Martial Arts contain more skills than what they are stereotyped to have. Like traditional Jujitsu does have a few strikes and kicks to accompany their Chin Na's and throws. Traditional Karate has joint locks and throws to accompany their punching and kicking. Again it will depend on the practitioner which of these skills they choose to focus on.

[Vash]

Originally posted by Ren Blade
Usually this applies to Chinese Martial Arts. Japanese and other nonChinese Martial Arts are more limited so often then one would have to cross train. If also a Chinese Martial Art school is incomplete and fails to teach their Chinese Martial Art style completely with one of the either striking, kicking, Chin Na, take downs is missing, then that school is incomplete and therefore that school is not a good Chinese Martial Art school and leaves their students no choice but to cross train with something else or find a better Chinese Martial Art school that is traditional enough to be complete in all ranges of combat.

Um . . . what? I don't see how a non-kung fu style of martial arts is any less complete. even the Japanese derivitives of Okinawan and Chinese arts, those few which are considered "watered down," can cover the differing ranges.

It's not the nationality of the art, it's the level of instruction therein.

[Ren Blade]

Sorry Vash, you are right. I am still waking up and I had reread what I wrote and was caught in my old thinking. But I do realize and have learned not all non-kung fu styles are limited and was editting my posts as you were posting. And I just read your post after I editted mine. I apologize.

I like this:

Originally posted by Vash
It's not the nationality of the art, it's the level of instruction therein.

[Vash]

'sall good, RB.

Peace.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis

Meat shake the reason so many people cross train, especially in the USA is because they are inpatient, unloyal, undisciplined and in a hurry to achieve something in a another style that they dont want to wait to learn in their own.

Not true. muay thai has no ground grappling. period. you're not going to strike much in bjj. period. Most kung fu has ground fighting, but not ground grappling. Simple fact is that no single style has EVERYTHING. you can train muay thai all your life, and you will never learn a triangle choke, because it has no ground grappling. consequently, you cross train. Longfist kung fu - no ground grappling, and chin na doesn't transfer directly to the ground. Consequently, grappling training will have to come from elsewhere.

In addition, you want to learn your skill from those who are the best at it. I don't want to learn ground grappling from a longfist school - they don't focus on it like the grappling school does. On the same token, I don't want to learn striking at a grappling school.

As far as loyalty, loyalty to whom or what? training in another style is not disloyal. Those are mentalities that should be abandoned in this day and age, IMO, in the context of fighting.


If you stick around long enough in a particular style and be willing to learn the basics and master the basics...you will understand your style and see that it has more of what u need than less.

But not EVERYTHING. and what you lack can and will be exploited. look at TMA and how grapplers exploited their flaw.


"... a student moving around from SCHOOL to SCHOOL, thinking they are learning all they need to know about the style in one year, that student hasnt even touched the surface of the art. "

That's not cross training, that's style hopping or forms collecting. There's a difference.

Im sure good Tae Kwon Do has ways to defend themselves on the ground just as many other styles.....the thing is very few students stay around long enough to learn it.

False. And even if it were true, why wait 10 years to learn how to grapple?

if you go to high school and u leave at grade 10 or 11, the reason u didnt learn chemistry II or III is becasue u didnt stay around long enough to finish the curriculum. Not because the school doesnt offer it.

The flaw there is that not all MA offer everything. you will never learn a spinning crescent kick in bjj. you won't learn a rolling knee bar in TKD, etc.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Ren Blade
Also if Chin Na principles are understood and one is capable of applying them stand up, Chin Na can be applied on the ground.

That's just not true. movement on the ground is different than that of standing. chin na does not directly transfer. And even if it did, if you aren't actively working it on the ground, you will still be hopelessly lost.

[Tainan Mantis]

Sevenstar,
Very logical points of view.
What we call cross training, by other names, has been a part of CMA since ancient times.
This is well documented in historical writings of old as well more recently.

I think I should gather all the evidence so that CMArtists will understand that cross training can make you better as well as increase your understanding, and show how this has been a part of CMA training since ancient times.

[SevenStar]

something like that would be great.