Jack of all trades, master of none?

[Vash]

The difference between sport fighting and "classical" training is the sports dudes take what they can use, and train it to the point that they can really fug you up with it.

Throw in that more dangerous stuff, that's some bad ju-ju.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

I suspect I'll get a lot of opposition to this comment but here goes ...

No matter what style of martial arts you train eventually you will begin to understand the underlying principles as well as body mechanics. Reflex and agility training along with conditioning will go a long way in dealing with adversaries of unknown training who have unknown techniques. Knowing how your style deals with different attacks you can you can then create new responses to new attacks.

Early in your training you practice specific moves. When you are advanced you should not be limited to only what you were taught as a beginner. The situation mentioned by KickingMantis about the okinawan karate tournament is a perfect example of dealing with a new situation using the principles of your style.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by mantisben

I wasn't thinking about a 'Sport' fighting art. I could believe that a sport-fighting art doesn't contain strikes, since most 'Sports' have rules on what you can and cannot do. I didn't know BJJ was a 'Sport' fighting art.



Most non-sport fighting arts are based on striking. Grappling, by nature, is more complicated than striking. Striking CAN get complicated, but for the most part, striking is not as complicated as grappling. Striking is more natural to do than grappling. Get 2 people with no fighting training, and tell them to fight and try to hurt each other. The MAJORITY (not everyone) of these people will try to strike each other.

yeah, I agree. On that last point though - watch the two untrained fighters. It's probable that ene will try to tackle, or they will end up in a clinch fall/drag eachother down.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
I suspect I'll get a lot of opposition to this comment but here goes ...

Only one thing I oppose, and I only oppose it to an extent:

No matter what style of martial arts you train eventually you will begin to understand the underlying principles as well as body mechanics.

experience in a standup art does not translate to efficiency on the ground. you can train for 20 years and still not know how to do a proper basic guard pass. Sure, thinking of a way to block a jumping spin kick can be fathomed - it's not extremely complicated. groundwork is VERY complicated. It's not just something you pick up from general MA experience. you will understand the mechanics, that's actually rather basic - the body moves certain ways. The main thing is positioning. two inches of extra space can mean the difference between you maintaining a dominant position and you being reversed by your opponent.

[mantisben]

Originally posted by SevenStar
...
watch the two untrained fighters. It's probable that ene will try to tackle, or they will end up in a clinch fall/drag eachother down.

Absolutely. You are right.

[KickingMantis]

"The main thing is positioning. two inches of extra space can mean the difference between you maintaining a dominant position and you being reversed by your opponent." (Seven Star)

I agree, but i think at some point, every martial artists starts to figure this out or starts to understand this. This is what makes the much smaller guy able to deal with the much larger and bulkier guys on the ground and off the ground.

For the most part, I have seen and heard of martial artist being in compromising situations when the altercations goes to the ground, they often feel ill prepared. Because they always trained on their feet. This is not a style problem, it is a school, insructor or student problem.

However, body mechanics is body mechanics, positioning is positioning, on the ground or off. a inch or two is the same on the ground or off, if you understand body mechanics, the way the body bends, turns, moves and is positioned, you can escape most moves, locks, holds, and grabs.

Fighting to me is similiar to swimming. My first time learning to swim in the Marine Corps was a long process and often would have drown. I would panic in the water and take myself straight down. Once i learned to relax, take breaths, and just keeping moving I started to get it. I still am not the best swimmer, but I will not and refuse to drown.

Its similiar to fighting in that. I figured out I am not the best swimmer, and drowning can happen so fast as does a fight, I didnt have time to do all the fancy strokes they taught us during the week of swimming class, but i learned to stay afloat and get to the sides and eventually bascially swim.

When i was much younger and being around guys all the time in the military, in a military police unit, applying a lot of the kung fu basics in altercations, conflicts, and down right challenges with these guys, sometimes much bigger, some trained in various martial arts and some not. I learned that, knowing simple and basic body mechanics and positioning help me a lot when in tight spots on and off the ground, with no prior BJJ or any other ground training, because its common sense. You bend or lock a finger, elbow, a wrist, leg, neck, shoulder, knees, groin or other joints and pressure points it works, for the few seconds to 3 or so minutes that most altercations last, although they seem much much longer, its the basics that will work and understanding whatever your studying, being that you are further along in a system that teaches you how to manipulate and use the body.

Now, if I am going to participate in a tourney or championship where all or most of the practicioners are going to grapple, then I'll take up and learn one of my choice.

Since i am not UFC intersted I most likely want. Because I feel with my past experiences and with the style I am learning, I am comfortable in most situations on and off the ground.

I think a properly trained mantis stylist,as well as many other systems that relys on the grabs and countering grabs, Chin-Na,
relying on the other indivuiduals energy and yielding/redirecting etc., , takedowns, sweeps, and other techniques have an advantage in many situations even with ground fighters. In order to be taken to the ground you most likely have to be grabbed, rushed, sweeped, or either hit or kicked pretty hard and even then, thats a lot of force coming your way, that can be felt, redirected and used against your opponent.

Most altercations dont start on the ground. The aim of the mantis practicioner is to finish the altercation with 1-3 techniques, so speed, accuracy, trapping your opponents center and imbalancing them, immediately among other things is important. I wouldnt even wait until they attacked me, If I had the slight indication that they were I wouldnt hestitate to take the initiative and try and put them on your back or head.

If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place.
I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis


For the most part, I have seen and heard of martial artist being in compromising situations when the altercations goes to the ground, they often feel ill prepared. Because they always trained on their feet. This is not a style problem, it is a school, insructor or student problem.

Not all styles address ground grappling sufficiently, if at all. That would indeed make it a style problem.

However, body mechanics is body mechanics, positioning is positioning, on the ground or off. a inch or two is the same on the ground or off, if you understand body mechanics, the way the body bends, turns, moves and is positioned, you can escape most moves, locks, holds, and grabs.

not necessarily. There are different ranges of movement on the ground. There are escapes on the ground that aren't possible standing. the mechanics are the same, the positioning is not, and is not something you will pick up spontaneuosly, simply because you understand standing locks.

I think a properly trained mantis stylist,as well as many other systems that relys on the grabs and countering grabs, Chin-Na,
relying on the other indivuiduals energy and yielding/redirecting etc., , takedowns, sweeps, and other techniques have an advantage in many situations even with ground fighters. In order to be taken to the ground you most likely have to be grabbed, rushed, sweeped, or either hit or kicked pretty hard and even then, thats a lot of force coming your way, that can be felt, redirected and used against your opponent.

grapplers, judoka, etc. spend ALOT of time in the clinch - mantis has no advantage there. A shuai chiao player, maybe, as they spend the majority of their time in the clinch as well. grappling is all about sensitivity, timing and technique....he can sense the same movements and do the same redirections as a chin na/mantis player.

Most altercations dont start on the ground.

you're right. most of them will go to a clinch though, and as stated above, grapplers are VERY comfortable there.

If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place.

That doesn't make any sense...Are you saying a good mantis player can't be taken down?


I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

Ideally, sure. But how often does it happen?

[KickingMantis]

I dont know what sufficiently is even necessary, Seven Star, when u are talking about teaching martial arts to the masses, Like I said previously, if one is planning to do sport bjj or judo or something for competition, then I would say learn groundfighting efficientlyand sufficiently as you can. However, the reason MOST people learn self defense is to be able to protect themselves in self defense situations, altercations, robbings, muggings, rape and etc that happens so fast, MOST people need reinforced training in basic self defense. I believe that some ground training would be helpful , so if the situation goes to the ground, they will feel comfortable there, However, getting into all the technicalities is not even immportant, and Im not going to even discuss it with you, because most people that I know that talk all theory, principle,and concept, can not apply it. Actually very few can.

Theorizing, conceptualizing about what your style can do or what you can do is very different than doing it with an opponent of equal skill, weight, size, length, and years of training out of a controlled environment.

I agree there are different ranges of mobility on the ground verses those standing up, I am sure there are escapes on the ground that aren't possible standing. Obviously, the mechanics are the same, the positioning is not, and is not something you will pick up spontaneuosly, simply because you understand standing locks, as you said, I didnt say simply because you understand locks, there is more to it than that, that you failed to comprehend. Go back and read what I said about it.

I am sure grapplers, judoka, etc. spend ALOT of time in the clinch, you said mantis players have no advantage there, i am assuming u know by experience. I wouldnt know because i dont know what you mean when u say a clinch. Please explain the technique, Then tell me have you spent time sparing with a experienced mantis player and attempted to execute the "clinch" and he didnt have the advantage? , previously u said u didnt study mantis, so how do u know a expereinced mantis practictioner wouldnt have a advantage there?

A shuai chiao player, maybe, as they spend the majority of their time in the clinch as well. grappling is all about sensitivity, timing and technique....he can sense the same movements and do the same redirections as a chin na/mantis player.

I said, "Most altercations dont start on the ground."

Seven Star you said this, "you're right. most of them will go to a clinch though, and as stated above, grapplers are VERY comfortable there."

Refer back to the above about your experience executing a clinche on a experience mantis player.

I said , "If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place."

Seven Star u said, "That doesn't make any sense...Are you saying a good mantis player can't be taken down?

Seven Star i dont know what makes since about it to you? I said the system is designed if used appropriately, (if the level is obviously obtained) to be able to totally destroy your foe from the first moment of contact.


I previously said, I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

actually the actual translation is, " If i use my hand I wont spare you If I am going to spare you , then I wont use my hand on you"

meaning that every strike should be in rapid motion, in combinations, one after the other, to keep the opponent confused, so that your attacks are not detected, techniques in succession after the other to utterly destroy your opponent.

Ideally, sure. But how often does it happen?

These days it doesnt happen often im sure, there is no need to.

You dont study mantis obviously and have never fought or hand the opportunity to train with mantis players that know what they are doing.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
True

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis
I dont know what sufficiently is even necessary, Seven Star, when u are talking about teaching martial arts to the masses, Like I said previously, if one is planning to do sport bjj or judo or something for competition, then I would say learn groundfighting efficientlyand sufficiently as you can. However, the reason MOST people learn self defense is to be able to protect themselves in self defense situations, altercations, robbings, muggings, rape and etc that happens so fast, MOST people need reinforced training in basic self defense. I believe that some ground training would be helpful , so if the situation goes to the ground, they will feel comfortable there, However, getting into all the technicalities is not even immportant, and Im not going to even discuss it with you, because most people that I know that talk all theory, principle,and concept, can not apply it. Actually very few can.

I agree with that. when dealing with rapists, muggers, etc. you will may need a few basic things, like mount escapes. when a heavier person has you mounted, you need to be technical. When the person is heavier and stronger - as in the case with most rape situations - you HAVE to be technical. the training in itself reinforces the basics, and in addition, some bjj schools (mine included) drills self defense situations - it's part of the beginners class.

Theorizing, conceptualizing about what your style can do or what you can do is very different than doing it with an opponent of equal skill, weight, size, length, and years of training out of a controlled environment.

once again, you HAVE to be technical.


I am sure grapplers, judoka, etc. spend ALOT of time in the clinch, you said mantis players have no advantage there, i am assuming u know by experience. I wouldnt know because i dont know what you mean when u say a clinch. Please explain the technique, Then tell me have you spent time sparing with a experienced mantis player and attempted to execute the "clinch" and he didnt have the advantage? , previously u said u didnt study mantis, so how do u know a expereinced mantis practictioner wouldnt have a advantage there?

simply put...have you ever watched wwf wrestling? you know how occasionally they tie up, one hand around the guys neck and the other on his elbow? or two judoka grabbing eachother? that's a basic clinch. grips will vary, but that is a clinch - two people tied up. I've sparred with a couple of guys who have had mantis experience, but they hadn't been involved for any real length of time. being that you guys train punches, kicks, locks, etc... and the judoka trains throws - ALL of which are from the clinch, and matches start by going into a clinch, pretty much all of my time is spent there.


Seven Star i dont know what makes since about it to you? I said the system is designed if used appropriately, (if the level is obviously obtained) to be able to totally destroy your foe from the first moment of contact.

That's what I don't understand...that's a VERY blanket assumption. How likely is it that you will actually destroy your opponent from the first touch?


I previously said, I read in a statement in an old mantis book, that goes something like this "Once your hand touches my hand, means death for you"

actually the actual translation is, " If i use my hand I wont spare you If I am going to spare you , then I wont use my hand on you"

meaning that every strike should be in rapid motion, in combinations, one after the other, to keep the opponent confused, so that your attacks are not detected, techniques in succession after the other to utterly destroy your opponent.

The Japanese have a similar saying: ichi go ichi-e - it means "one encounter; one chance"


These days it doesnt happen often im sure, there is no need to.

agreed.


You dont study mantis obviously and have never fought or hand the opportunity to train with mantis players that know what they are doing.

you are correct. I do not study it, nor have I claimed to. To make some of the assumptions that you made are very blanket though, and I'm sure mantis108, yu shan and others will agree. On the same token, it's seems apparent that you have no working grappling experience, outside of what you have encountered in kung fu.

[KickingMantis]

I previous said , "Theorizing, conceptualizing about what your style can do or what you can do is very different than doing it with an opponent of equal skill, weight, size, length, and years of training out of a controlled environment."

You replied, " once again, you HAVE to be technical."

As long as you can apply it when u need it is all that matters man. " The proof is in the pudding. There is much to gain from talking about the theories, consepts and all, it helps tka eus to higher level in the martial arts, however, taditionalist wants to see you put it in action. We may verbally disagree about something conceptually, but if someone can make it work for them everytime. Hey! GOLLY!


(Seven Star....... "simply put...have you ever watched wwf wrestling? you know how occasionally they tie up, one hand around the guys neck and the other on his elbow? or two judoka grabbing eachother? that's a basic clinch. grips will vary, but that is a clinch - two people tied up. I've sparred with a couple of guys who have had mantis experience, but they hadn't been involved for any real length of time. being that you guys train punches, kicks, locks, etc... and the judoka trains throws - ALL of which are from the clinch, and matches start by going into a clinch, pretty much all of my time is spent there.)

Seven Star, Ok!, I am familiar with the "Clinch" and I know what you are talking about. But I have never seen a real fight or been in a situation where I or anyone else in a real life situation were there except in high school wrestling tournaments and TV Wrestling, or like you said in a "match" When mantis practicioner 'play hands or touch hands" in close, they are often in the same positions as you describe as the "clinch" and use sensitive to manuever as well.

(Seven Star....That's what I don't understand...that's a VERY blanket assumption. How likely is it that you will actually destroy your opponent from the first touch?)

Dont think I said from the first touch. You may want to go back and read what I actually said on that topic. Or maybe I didnt make my self clear.

And since you are not too familiar with the style and have only limited experience in it, as you said from individuals who have had some training but not a great deal, I will tell you of some of the characteristics of the Praying Mantis stlye.

The System requires a lot of quick hand speed and elusive footwork, executing accurate multiple attacks in a flurry, right after the other to tear and wear the opponent down. This is down by using your opponnets energy against them, trapping their centerline, and using your footwork to topple them, trip or take them to the ground in such awkward positions that the landing alone itself would cause great injury. With such lightening speed that when it happens they end up on their back without remember even attacking.

Every attack is is preceded with a block and a block is instantly preceded by an attack, When we block we attack, when we attack we block, they are all mingled together into one technique, The mantis style does not stop at one movement, and wait for your opponent to respond, it is fluid, and follows with two or more techniques, even if we are hit, we keep moving. We try to train to be comfortable in the inside attacking continously, consistently and accurately with all parts of the body. So this is the message the old proverb was trying to give,

" If I use my hand, I will not spare you, If I am going to spare you, then I wont use my hand."


(Seven Star....To make some of the assumptions that you made are very blanket though, and I'm sure mantis108, yu shan and others will agree)

Please remind me of those blanket statements?

(Seven Star...On the same token, it's seems apparent that you have no working grappling experience, outside of what you have encountered in kung fu.)

Actually, you are partially correct, I havent had any FORMAL instruction in grappling, except for the INFORMAL training I did with various guys in the military who were proficient in Judo, Akidio and JuJitsu. However, similiar to what you stated about your informal experience in Mantis with guys who, how you stated it, didn't seem to know much about what they had learned.

I dont know the extent of their training, but i know that learning a few forms, putting on gloves and kickboxing is not what mantis is about or any real kung fu for that matters. And from interacting and talking with other people, not many people actually take the time to teach their students how to use mantis and not many students really train in mantis or any other art to really understand how effective it is.

So to base your assuptions about the mantis system or any other kung fu system, from a few people who u know that may or may not be good or accomplished students in the mantis style, a chat forum and maybe a few books and videos you may have read or viewed and try and compare it to the little BJJ or other grappling arts you do know is a blanket perspective.

(Seven Star...To make some of the assumptions that you made are very blanket though, and I'm sure mantis108, yu shan and others will agree.)

Again which statements are those? If I have made blanket statements and others dont agree, they have every right to.
I dont expect for others to agree with everything I am saying. As I dont agree with everything that you or others say on here.It is our right to belief as we wish, doesnt make it right or wrong. it just is. We will all continue to make statements and have beliefs until we have an experience that may change our mind.

All Tae Kon Do students dont agree, All Wing Chun Students dont agree, All Christians dont agree, All politicians dont agree. Doesnt make me convert to Buddhism, or change my political affiliation, martial art style or school.

[isol8d]

Originally posted by SevenStar


yeah, I agree. On that last point though - watch the two untrained fighters. It's probable that ene will try to tackle, or they will end up in a clinch fall/drag eachother down.

In my life experience, that statement is full of hyperbole.

[Hua Lin Laoshi]

This seems to be a recurring theme. Grapplers insisting you have to have extensive ground training to survive a real fight. Others insisting their training provides the means to deal with any situation (my opinion although learning grappling definitely helps). Generally, the ones involved in the discussion are not cross trained so their arguement is biased. I think what's needed is for a few volunteers from each side get together and see what the other side has to offer. I'm sure a friendly exchange of techniques would be enlightening to all.

[KickingMantis]

I agree that experience in a few styles, very different from your own, can only help you improve your own style and give you an advantage if you have reached some level of proficiency in a main style. I can see how ground fighting and grappling can be beneficial.

The issue is, is that students with 1-2 years of experience, if that , in about 3-4 different styles, who may or may not be proficient in those, here on the mantis forum trying to compare and anaylsis the mantis style with other styles, which they have no real experience in any of them, cross training with and getting an idea of what mantis is suppose to be like, from other beginner, intermediate or inexperienced mantis students and making statements about they think it is.

Its sort like taking the first year of Psychology, the first year of a Chemistry, the first year of Biology, and trying to debate about Physics.

In my opinion it's better to get a degree in an area of study, thats going to provide you with a main focus and at the same time introducing you to other areas that can compliment what you are learning. Then you can appreciate any area of study and begin to look at the benefits of all arts and how it may or may not apply to your own.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by KickingMantis

Seven Star, Ok!, I am familiar with the "Clinch" and I know what you are talking about. But I have never seen a real fight or been in a situation where I or anyone else in a real life situation were there except in high school wrestling tournaments and TV Wrestling, or like you said in a "match" When mantis practicioner 'play hands or touch hands" in close, they are often in the same positions as you describe as the "clinch" and use sensitive to manuever as well.

Almost every fight I've seen has gone to a clinch, and a few that I've been in. when dealing with untrained fighters, they tend to flail, lose balance, etc. as I stated earlier in this thread. They fall into eachother, intentionally drag eachother down, etc.

Dont think I said from the first touch. You may want to go back and read what I actually said on that topic. Or maybe I didnt make my self clear.

to be exact, you said "destroy your for from the first moment of contact", and that was in response to why a mantis player should never end up on the ground.


And since you are not too familiar with the style and have only limited experience in it, as you said from individuals who have had some training but not a great deal, I will tell you of some of the characteristics of the Praying Mantis stlye.

The System requires a lot of quick hand speed and elusive footwork, executing accurate multiple attacks in a flurry, right after the other to tear and wear the opponent down. This is down by using your opponnets energy against them, trapping their centerline, and using your footwork to topple them, trip or take them to the ground in such awkward positions that the landing alone itself would cause great injury. With such lightening speed that when it happens they end up on their back without remember even attacking.

Every attack is is preceded with a block and a block is instantly preceded by an attack, When we block we attack, when we attack we block, they are all mingled together into one technique, The mantis style does not stop at one movement, and wait for your opponent to respond, it is fluid, and follows with two or more techniques, even if we are hit, we keep moving. We try to train to be comfortable in the inside attacking continously, consistently and accurately with all parts of the body. So this is the message the old proverb was trying to give,

thanks for that. That was pretty much the take I had, except for the block/attack/block scheme. the rest actually sounds similar to muay thai.


Please remind me of those blanket statements?

1. you will dominate your opponent from the first moment of contact, if you are using the style correctly.

2. If a mantis practioner ends on the ground grappling with a opponent, then he/she didn't use the system in the first place.


(Seven Star...On the same token, it's seems apparent that you have no working grappling experience, outside of what you have encountered in kung fu.)

Actually, you are partially correct, I havent had any FORMAL instruction in grappling, except for the INFORMAL training I did with various guys in the military who were proficient in Judo, Akidio and JuJitsu. However, similiar to what you stated about your informal experience in Mantis with guys who, how you stated it, didn't seem to know much about what they had learned.

I dont know the extent of their training, but i know that learning a few forms, putting on gloves and kickboxing is not what mantis is about or any real kung fu for that matters. And from interacting and talking with other people, not many people actually take the time to teach their students how to use mantis and not many students really train in mantis or any other art to really understand how effective it is.

So to base your assuptions about the mantis system or any other kung fu system, from a few people who u know that may or may not be good or accomplished students in the mantis style, a chat forum and maybe a few books and videos you may have read or viewed and try and compare it to the little BJJ or other grappling arts you do know is a blanket perspective.

I dont expect for others to agree with everything I am saying. As I dont agree with everything that you or others say on here.It is our right to belief as we wish, doesnt make it right or wrong. it just is. We will all continue to make statements and have beliefs until we have an experience that may change our mind.

All Tae Kon Do students dont agree, All Wing Chun Students dont agree, All Christians dont agree, All politicians dont agree. Doesnt make me convert to Buddhism, or change my political affiliation, martial art style or school.

agreed.

[SevenStar]

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
This seems to be a recurring theme. Grapplers insisting you have to have extensive ground training to survive a real fight.

I don't insist that. I insist that you do need ground training, but that training can come from rolling with friends who train in grappling - somone who can correct you, as that is the area of their expertise. I wouldn't ask them how to trap - I'd go to a CMA for that.

I think what's needed is for a few volunteers from each side get together and see what the other side has to offer. I'm sure a friendly exchange of techniques would be enlightening to all.


I agree with that. One day when I'm not feeling to lazy to drive, I want to head up to yu shan's and spend a few hours up there (he's about 3 hours away from me.)