check out these clips

[looking_up]

I think there must be several kinds of fa jin. Different ways to use the dantian.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by Syd

I have also been able to drive forwards in a Fencing shuffle (Very difficult to explain verbally, but I could show you in person, if only!) where in driving off the back leg you slap the front foot forwards and whip the body forward whilst moving/shuffling up and onto/towards your target. You are essentially driving through your intended target, or meeting that target whilst redirecting the incoming force and striking pre-emptively.

Sounds like hsing-i. Do you do that too?

I explained this in another thread far more efficiently and will retrieve is as soon as that dang website comes back online. Essentially no root is lost and the moment where the feet are sort of in transition are at the points where the driving force and momentum are already comitted forwards and onto the front foot. The whole thing occurs so briefly that I would defy any person to be able to uproot you using this approach. It's the same thing as a static rooted strike driving off the back foot accept it is a dynamic version where you are in a transit towards another movement or application. This is the reality of combat... you can't stand still forever. You have to know how to move and apply your techniques within a dynamic and ever changing circumstance.

I understand what you are describing here, but it's very different from what Erle describes in that first clip on his site. He demonstrates a stationary strike and says "your feet can even leave the ground when you do fa jing". So I'll attempt to paraphrase you... From what you describe above, you are not committing any force into the bag/opponent until that front foot is planted, right? We are definitely at a point where words may fail us, but I'm patient, so correct my assumption if it's wrong.

I think we are saying the same thing, though perhaps I was a little inelegant in my use of the terms... "both feet off the ground". Ofcourse I am not saying you should issue when your feet are in mid air... forget that.

OK, but if both of your feet leave the ground as a result of issuing (like what Erle describes), you are neither rooted or issuing. What you are describing does not seem to involve even a fraction of a second of free floating. But we may be at that point where the written word will fail us...

By the way, who is your teacher?

Mike Patterson.

Sure... I would agree. All I was saying is that when in a combat situation you are required to move, shuffle and shift and there will be many ocassions when your feet will be leaving the ground for fractions of a second and in very small degrees. I was trying to point out that it is not necessary or desirable to stay in one spot firmly rooted in order to get off powerful and explosive shots on an opponent. Dig what goes on during large San Sau! I am not suggesting however that anybody should try issuing whilst in mid air with both feet off the ground! *L*

Still, this is different from what Erle is talking about. It's just so hard to tell from his clip because of the poor encoding. But he is saying that both feet can leave the ground *as a result* of issuing. That's what rang my alarm.

Hats off to your patience and willingness to really get into a good convo on this stuff Syd, so many people stop reading threads when the posts start getting long....

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by looking_up
I think there must be several kinds of fa jin. Different ways to use the dantian.

There are certainly a thousand ways to describe how it's done, but if you watch people who can do it, the same principles are always involved. The classics all describe what fa jing is quite clearly. It's unique to the internal styles, despite the latest claims otherwise... Expression within martial arts is like snowflakes- no two expressions will ever be the same, but the principles (like the geometries in snowflkes) are perfectly consistent.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Often, i see problems arise when people are so confined by "forms" and "theories" that they can't deal with something that is outside their frame of reference.. like the Taiji guy laying on the ground holding a hand-full of his teeth mumbling something like "yeah, but your heel came off the ground"... in the relative safety of the training or refereed matches we can hold our standards high, but.. when my life's on the line i pray the training works, but i don't stop to correct my stances or chastise my opponent for bad form..

With certainty i can say that FaJing can be, and is frequently, issued with what the classics would call poor rooting.. simple physics and anatomy will permit enormous amounts of energy to be generated solely from the mass of the body.. Of course being "rooted" is preferred and will generate stable grounded transmission of energy backed by the planet beneath your feet.. but, it is precisely the Taiji player's nature to adapt and change that allows them to make the most of the situation, even if the rooting is compromised.. we must be prepared to respond from ANY position/situation, not waiting until we have such precise form as to satisfy the classic interpretation of Taiji.. That "classic interpretation" is a target, not a goal.. the goal is survival, the target increases our chances of making the goal..

Just another perspective.. Be well...

[Syd]

Taichibob

Couldn't have said it better Bob...

JohnCain

Hey bro, I found that little debate regarding the Fajin and feet off the ground thing, seems that you aren't the only person who isn't convinced over that one. I'll post my idea's from that debate here as they pretty much sum up my thoughts on the whole thing.

Looks like Hsing I... do you do that as well?

Interesting you should say that actually. Infact no I don't do it but I have a great respect for the art. All I was really describing was Taiji in dynamic rather than static mode. I assure you I am adhering to the usual Taiji principles when I do it. As far as I know, your allowed to go forwards as well as backwards in Taijiquan. This would be of particular use when in an actual fight.

I understand what you are describing here, but it's very different from what Erle describes in that first clip on his site. He demonstrates a stationary strike and says "your feet can even leave the ground when you do fa jing". So I'll attempt to paraphrase you... From what you describe above, you are not committing any force into the bag/opponent until that front foot is planted, right? We are definitely at a point where words may fail us, but I'm patient, so correct my assumption if it's wrong.

*L* Man it's hard enough aint it? Ok, I can't say for sure what Erle was doing and I can only answer for myself and what I do. I don't just train Taijiquan by the book but I am interested in incorporating within a Taiji framework anything and everything that works technically and realistically. I have seen Erle at work and can assure you that with over 30 years invested in Martial Arts that he knows his stuff and is more than capable of using Taiji combatively. Having said that I can allow for the fact that he is a bit further down that road than you and I and I also accept that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Infact frequently we find such differences in an art between Student and Teacher within only one generation due to the existence of individualisation of technique, which makes total sense.

I know what you are saying and while I don't strike with my front foot wayyyyy off the ground, when I issue forward and shuffle up I have found that the front foot is not as important for root because the strike occurs generally at the same point as the front foot takes it's root. This being the case we have a fractional moment when the centrifugal comitment of energy is in transit, which is generated from the back leg, the hips, waist and then arms. The front foot is the last thing to happen and it takes it's root again at the point of impact with the target. As I said I am not at the point where I am issuing with both feet clearly off the ground, but I understand the concept where both feet break root in order for combative movement and dynamic expression of movement take place.

Here below are some outakes from that discussion where I shared a few idea's or thoughts on what might be happening if both feet came off the ground. I'll highlight the objections of the other guy just to make sense of some of my idea's... for those that vehemently disagree, what can I say?

With all due respect to all, during the fajing it is not important if the feet are off the ground since you give your body up to it and the power will create enough trajectory where you may for a split second lose earth contact. The main issue is that it would ofcourse be disastrous if you initiated your fajing without contact with the ground, but if you have initiated the attack with a firm root and you issue firstly using Qi drawn up through the earth then powered into the thighs/legs, coupled to the correct use of the waist and then issuing from the dan tien when you issue through to your target via your arms... I don't see how this would be poor form if for a split second you came off the ground when you issued the strike?

It is akin to when a steel trap or bear trap fires from it's open position and literally leaps up off the ground in a whipping/snapping action when it exhibits the maximum energy on it's trajectory! It is only off the ground for a split second and quickly settles back to it's root again. I think the problem comes when people read too literally into certain texts and take it to mean that these are absolutes. We should allow for advanced developments and techniques to take a slightly different form when applied at their higher order, or in actual fighting situtations.

I think when performed at optimum or in dynamic combat, fajing could cause one to break with ground for a split second, nothing wrong with it as far as I can see as it's all part of kinetics and dynamics. Afterall Taiji is largely about a balance of energies and a balancing of total opposites. When you issue you do so with a firm root, why wouldn't it be logical that at optimal velocity, the point of striking, that the practitioner is not in a state of breaking contact, hence balancing the energies? Makes total sense to me...

Best, Syd

(The other guy) - Going with that bear trap metaphore, if the bear trap 'jumps' of the ground as it snaps it is dispersing it's energy.

(ME)It doesn't literally jump into the air, this is an analogy, but it does break contact with the earth for a fraction of a second due to the force with which the trajectory has compelled it. I would argue that a trap or whip is not dispersing energy and suggest instead that it is emitting energy. The entire point of Taiji fajing and learning how to move the body is to harness great energy and release/emit it to a given target. The Taiji fighter loses nothing in this split second breaking of contact because it is only a fraction of a second and contact is taken up just as strongly, immediately after the strike has hit it's mark.

(The other guy)Every bit of energy that get's commited to lifting it off the ground is a bit less energy directed at snapping the trap shut.

(ME) I disagree with this assesment of the dynamic in play. Instead I see that the awesome power harnessed and released in this design is actually far in excess of the designs capability to constrain! When a human being correctly emits fajing, the power emitted is such that the body will in certain instances literally launch itself for a fraction of a second and break it's contact with the ground, not it's root. There is a very big difference. Anybody who is in synch with their qi and taijiquan will still maintain a basic qi root to the earth even when a part of the body isn't in physical contact with the ground.

Continued....

[Syd]

...Continued....

(Other Guy) If your feet are off the ground then they are not, at that moment of impact, delivering additional power. That's just physics. Whatever you can deliver while not rooted, no matter how much that is, it is less than you could if your feet were planted at impact.

(ME) I think this totally depends on your analysis of the full range of motion and the points at which during the issuing of a strike the Taiji fighter begins to enter the point of diminishing returns. The physics you claim to support your point isn't the same kind of physics that I believe is in play during a fajing strike, sorry. As far as I am concerned the important moments when a physcial root are totally necessary is at the initiating stage where the qi is drawn up through the legs, then mixes with the dan tien and the use of the waist and then issued through the upper body and directed through whatever output through to the target. A whip is never in contact with the earth and it's explosiveness is only governed by the centrifugal action of it's source of energy. A whip can be cracked by anybody, even if they suspended in the air!

What seems to be missunderstood is that the maximum velocity of the output power in any given fajin strike is already achieved at a certain point of issue or release! When ground contact is broken, it is the point AFTER this maximum output has been achieved, and the fighter is already in a state of diminishing returns. As I said earlier if the fighter were to leap in the air and THEN try and issue fajin, then this would have a negative effect on the output of power in the strike. But having already drawn power from the root and then flowed on from that to the upper body in the whipping action of the waist, this does not occur because like a spring, the energy wants to unleash itself in an upward and outward explosiveness. The period of time and the degree that the foot might lose contact with the earth (not broken root!) is so minimal that it's negligable and makes complete sense to me given the amount of energy that is being emitted at that moment.

So thats pretty much my thoughts on all that. I'm sure someone will find something in all that to take exception to but I have basically said all I can on it. You said you teacher was Mike Patterson? I looked at some of the clips and I like his style, he looks like a good teacher.

Still, this is different from what Erle is talking about. It's just so hard to tell from his clip because of the poor encoding. But he is saying that both feet can leave the ground *as a result* of issuing. That's what rang my alarm.

As I said bro, your not the only one who has an issue with that one. I can assure you that if you e-mail Erle he'll be more than happy to give you a detailed answer regarding your concerns on this. I am not so much of an Erle follower as a person who has trained in his system and someone who's on their own journey towards effictiveness in Taijiquan as a combat art. These days I train alone in Yang Style and with a few guys who are also dedicated to similar results as myself. I am however about to begin training in Wu Style with a gentleman named Master Sam Li who is the son of Grandmaster Li Li Qun, inventor of Backstepping Qigong. Both Sam Li and Li Li Qun were disciples of Wu Styles Ma Yueh Liang and Grandmaster Li Li Qun was the Secretary of the Shanghai Wu Style asociation alongside Ma Yueh Liang for over 20 years. Another gentleman I am currently training with was one of the 5 Tigers of Canton in the 1960's when he was one of the few Choy Lay Fut fighters to do well against Thai Boxers in Thailand. Due to injury in the 60's he turned to TCM and found a doctor who was also an internal arts master. This master taught him Liu He Ba Fa and after 3 years training with this gentleman he was chosen and accepted to pass on a closed door Taoist art with predates Liu He Ba Fa; it is called Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung or Continuously Circulating One Breath Palm.

Hats off to your patience and willingness to really get into a good convo on this stuff Syd, so many people stop reading threads when the posts start getting long....

Thanks mate, I do enjoy the cut and thrust of these discussions and respect all fellow internal artists and what they do. We are all pretty much brothers of the same art, I can't see the use in mud slinging within the same family. I've been guilty of it in the past but I'm fast beginning to change my ways and views on all this as Martial Arts becomes a life journey for me rather than a banner to wave.

Best to ya.. Syd

[shrub]

Syd - Get a Life!

[Syd]

Shrub,

Thanks mate, this is my life.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
Greetings..
With certainty i can say that FaJing can be, and is frequently, issued with what the classics would call poor rooting.. simple physics and anatomy will permit enormous amounts of energy to be generated solely from the mass of the body.. Of course being "rooted" is preferred and will generate stable grounded transmission of energy backed by the planet beneath your feet.. but,

Hey Bob, that's all I was arguing. I am quite aware that one's ability to actually fight is far different from being able to demonstate "principles", in or out of a fight. Like I said before, when it comes to a fight, what works is ALL that counts. Did I say what Erle does would not work in a fight?

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

I have not commented on Earle at all.. i have no quarrel with Earle, i also have no actual experience with him.. to comment on the limited info in the Video Clip would be presumptous on my part.. My style differs from that which i witnessed in the clip, i favor sticking and ChinNa.. followed-up with elbows and "internal work" if the opponent feels the need to continue the struggle.. Ultimately, if the situation demands full-out combat, i can go there too.. But, my intent is to control the conflict so that no one gets seriously injured.. (i have had my fill of that type of game)..

Be well..

[GroungJing]

Originally posted by Syd
Shrub,

Thanks mate, this is my life.

Dude you need a women. You have way to much time on your hands. What do you do? Work out then really train by typing on a computer?

[Syd]

You've got me pegged, what can I tell ya?

[Unmatchable]

Not everyone is fortunate enough to have a woman. Some men are just undesirable by women.

[GroungJing]

Hold up Unmatchable.......Have you heard the phrase "pulling someone's chain...."

I was just teasing......If anything I respect Syd cause he doesn't waffle on what he believes and displays a thick skin. These are really good traites to have on a news group such as this.

We may differ in opinion, but that's another story.


Besides don't we really come here to hoot and holler and rattle the sabers....

[dre_doggX]

With on of his videos, its on Fa-jing. I am taking kungfu, and Tai chi from a teacher this semester, he what he told me is that one of the difference between a real kungfu school, and a commerical one is that all real kungfu schools belong to family and do there martial arts from a certain family, thats why martial arts like Lohan, Wing Chun and even Hsing-i will look different FROM THE STANDARD FORMS, IN THE BOOKS.

Erles explaination is clear, no ridel to it.

i dont understand why is it that people who have never read anything on his site, of so much to say about him

Honestly I read and watch from two of his videos I own, he has been generous and is honestly about teaching Tai chi, no taking peoples money.

He shows how the health and the martial are inseperable. Yes I am sure they are many many different ways of doing Yang Lu Chan Tai chi, but I would say read his articles then tell me what you got to say.

I honestly believe, that all this Erle bashing is foolish. WHO HERE HAS 30 YEARS EXPERIENCE IN THE SAME STYLE ????????????


yes stuff is there you just got to go to www.taijiworld.com

AND LOOK.

Different Kungfus are both a product of adaptation and the martial artist, kungfu is about self, not about what is traditional or not. if it works for Erle works for Erle, what work for Bruce Lee(which would rather Erles) works for Bruce Lee. and so on.
thankyou, you reading
iam out.