check out these clips

[backbreaker]

Yang style-

Yang chengFu , to Cheng man Ching , to Tchoung ta Tchen , to my teacher who gave me permission to teach CMC style at college. I don't teach it or really practice it at all now.


Chen style-

Chen Zhoukui , to Ma Hong ,to a teacher in Canada I learned for 2 years from

[Syd]

lol you'll just have to settle using my own words to bash as your looking to do.

Seems the only person with something to hide here is you...

My comments are usually directed at your words, not Erle's.

Thats funny because most of what I have to say comes from my teachings of Erle and his system. You attack me and you attack Erle, it's more or less the same thing, though you would try to deviate.

however I included some of his work to show where your coming from.

I have no idea what your angle is, whether you are genuinely sarcastic or just ambivialent.

Judge me on what I say not on my teacher's rep. If my words are full of sh*t please check me on it.

You don't seem to say anything and back up what you do say with nothing. How can I judge something without substance?

Ya never know, I could be a book learned Tai Chi Master like Wong Kit but at least he learned from the very best TCC Master's books.

Another ambiguous statement which say's nothing and leaves us yet again no-where. Yet again you won't be open, honest and above board about where you draw your training and teachings from and you expect that based on this myself or others should defer to some greater knowledge which dare not reveal it's origins?

Pah! ....;

[Syd]

Thanks Backbreaker for your open response, apreciated.

[brassmonkey]

"You don't seem to say anything and back up what you do say with nothing. How can I judge something without substance?"

well when I disagreed with your theory about jumping out of a sweep how can I back that up if your not willing to test it outside your classmates, seniors and teachers who also believe it like you stated.

If you do a search on my posts you'll see what I believe and don't believe. Check out what I've praised on here. A few months back I posted what I believe to be a very good martial arts teacher out of all places Australia, a Mr. Raymond Floro. Check out my comments on that thread and you'll see better where I come from.

[backbreaker]

A video from Wong Kiew Kit's page. The awesome power of dragon qigong.

http://www.wahnam.com/video/videos/S...nstitute07.wmv

[Syd]

well when I disagreed with your theory about jumping out of a sweep how can I back that up if your not willing to test it outside your classmates, seniors and teachers who also believe it like you stated.

It's not just my own thoughts on the application or only Erle's. You can find similar applications to this in Yang Jwing Mings books and video's also. As I stated before it was but one such possible application, not the be all and end all.

If someone did decided to sweep me and I jumped to avoid the leg sweep I would clearly land my structure afterwards right down ontop of my opponent. This would allow any number of follow up techniques in order to finish off. I'm not quite sure what seems so outlandish about jumping in order to evade a sweep.

if you do a search on my posts you'll see what I believe and don't believe.

I want to know what you base your beliefs on. I want to know where you get the belief that your idea's are the only idea's relevent to Taiji applications. I don't care for yet another unfounded group of writings which remain perpetually without substance or background.

Check out what I've praised on here.

Again, you come on with this air that what you approve of has worth and nothing else will do. Add to this the fact that you supply no evidence of you training or learning, your teachers or anything else. I repeat once more, without any of this, by what right do you assume the role of sole judge and authority on whats valid and what isn't?

A few months back I posted what I believe to be a very good martial arts teacher out of all places Australia, a Mr. Raymond Floro. Check out my comments on that thread and you'll see better where I come from.

Great... but it's still meaningless without your open disclosure... it's insubstantial and without any credibility whatsoever. I have nothing against you, as I have stated before, but this continual evasiveness of supporting info is getting you no further down the road to crediblity.

It's always easy to criticize another man's art when you won't disclose or reveal your own. Whats to hide?

Sorry...

[Syd]

Thats a very interesting clip of Wong... shame it's so muddy.

[bob10]

Fa jing in the Cheng Fu lineage, at least as taught by his son Yang Sau Cheung is not in the large frame form. This is because the large frame is designed as a beginner form to stretch and strengthen.

Fa jing is practiced in solos drills, individual postures taken from the form and drilled explosively. It is also present in the fast set (long boxing) which is a fast/slow set and the old Yang from (which is different from Erle's). . There is also the small frame form, all done at speed. The broadsword is also practiced at speed.

FJ is also developed through staff drills and dynamic push hands.

cheers

[Ray Pina]

Maybe his heal comes up .... so what? When you practice it better be down -- 100%. But when it comes to go live, how much can you bring with you? I doubt you bring and can maintain 100% perfection in movement. If you bring 75% you're pretty good already. Ask musicians who play for large crowds how much they lose to pressure.

"why not step out and try again with some feet? americans": This is the dumbest thing I've read here! Doesn't the other guy have feet, too. If he beats your hands he has an advanatge ... pick up your foot and chances are you'll go down.... As for "Americans", I can't recall the last time I've seen a Taiwainies champ in, well, anything .... forget boxing, K1, Pride, Wrestling, UFC .... and on and on and on and on.

We have the same skill set -- probbaly better now -- and we grow them bigger over here. You need more McDonalds.

[RSA]

Maybe his heel comes up so what. Your response says it all.

[Ray Pina]

I know the important of driving off the heal. I won't use the word root though, because I am not a tree. And no matter how much you train your feet are still ONTOP of the surface.

My point: I have walked miles doing Hsing-I Cannon Fist. Back and forth. Drive off the back leg, keep hang time for as long as I can, finish the strike before landing ... all of this produces the largest POTENTIAL strike.

However, in fighting, I KNOW my heal comes up at times!

Why (that's the important aspect)? Because sometimes I have opened the door already and moved the guy. The back foot isn't the back foot anymore -- even though it's back there. Understand? I'm saying the front leg is now loaded.

Or sometimes in the free and ever changing dynamic of H2H combat I break the rule (imagine that) in favor of mobility.

You are enjoying drinking the Coke that your teacher gives to you and you read in all the books, magazines and discussion forums. I am utilizing the forumla my master has shared with me.... I can do what I want. When you know the rules it is safer to break them.

All this back and forth is actually funny! Who cares what the hell anybody else does. I know what I can (and can't) do. I'll post some footage of me after a fight I have in two months. You can tear it apart, deside all the things I did wrong while knocking the guy down.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Originally posted by RSA
Maybe his heel comes up so what. Your response says it all.

...and your response shows that you know little, if anything about actually applying Taiji. I have never seen a Taiji person with good power *NOT* pick up their driving leg after issuing. It's the most natural way to retain root after issuing (on another person, not just in form). Like hsing-i's bamboo step in it's pi chuan movement (not talking stomps here). Look at the clip linked below. Watch the proponent demonstrate press (about 3/4 of the way into the clip) his rear foot, including the heel, comes off of the ground, and his root is not compromised. No over extension at all. This is what application actually looks like RSA.

http://www.hsing-i.com/pics/WCTCs1App.mpg

[Syd]

I would agree with the above also. There were people who used to look at Erle performing Fajin when striking and complain that his heel may have lifted slightly. The claim was always the same but in application he more or less said the same as John above has just done.

When practicing striking and issuing fajin on a heavy bag I have also noticed in the sung state the release of power when issuing creates such momentum that for a fraction of a second both the back and front foot leave the ground. It does nothing to compromise the root.

You need to think of it in the same way that a fencer shuffles down the piste when striking with lightning speed... same principle and the fencer does not lose his/her root either.

[QuaiJohnCain]

Syd- let me first start out with a friendly request- can we agree to disagree? People argue all the time about what is the one true way to do something, but what really counts is whether something works or not. I have yet to meet Erle, so I cannot really say what he does from my own perspective, but 90% of the Taiji community agrees: Erle Montaige does not do fa jing. After watching the video clip on his website with his perspectives, I have to agree with that consensus. I did like how he pointed out the how an internal push, and getting power to "explode" inside of a target are completely different things. It's the the claim that both feet can leave the ground when it's done right that makes me raise an eyebrow. A half step follow up AFTER issuing is one thing, but one, or both feet leaving the ground at the very moment of issuing? Now that suggests lack of root. I have watched my teacher give demonstrations of getting power to "explode" within a target many, many times. I have NEVER seen him issue without his feet solidly planted on the ground. Now, as I said before, people do things differently, and what matters is whether or not it works, but Erle's comment on how a heavy bag moves when fa jing is done correctly was highly suspect to me. I have seen a few Taiji teachers demonstrate fa jing blows on heavy bags, and the ones who could really do it good could make the bag jump from the front surface being struck, or the center, or the opposite side of the bag being struck. Sounds weird in the written word but when you watch it happen you can literally see what the kinetic force is doing to/through the bag. Why didn't Erle use a heavy bag to demonstrate instead of having someone hold up a mitt? You can't really see what is happening at all. Anyways what I am saying is all of the most destructive blows I have seen and felt were done by people with thier feet planted firm on the ground. Without root, without physical connection with the ground, high power cannot be generated with the body's structure, let alone be tranferred. Without root, throwing a blow in mid air will cause your force to rebound back into your own frame, pushing you back down to the ground, whereas if you were rooted, all of that wasted force could have been routed through your structure into the opponent at the moment of impact.

[Syd]

Syd- let me first start out with a friendly request- can we agree to disagree?

Sure...

People argue all the time about what is the one true way to do something, but what really counts is whether something works or not.

Works for me...

I have yet to meet Erle, so I cannot really say what he does from my own perspective, but 90% of the Taiji community agrees: Erle Montaige does not do fa jing.

I think 90% would be very difficult to gain consensus on. Perhaps rather what Erle does is something which has been tailored to his own best result. Every person physically performs certain moves and applications with their own flavour.

After watching the video clip on his website with his perspectives, I have to agree with that consensus.

It's still an unproven 90% of nothing, but I'll take it onboard that you personally don't agree.

I did like how he pointed out the how an internal push, and getting power to "explode" inside of a target are completely different things.

O.K

It's the the claim that both feet can leave the ground when it's done right that makes me raise an eyebrow.

This is where semantics and dynamics in the written word make any kind of discussion like this almost impossible. I have performed fajin with both feet planted and driving off the back leg, remained perfectly rooted and performed an explosive strike on a heavy bag.

I have also been able to drive forwards in a Fencing shuffle (Very difficult to explain verbally, but I could show you in person, if only!) where in driving off the back leg you slap the front foot forwards and whip the body forward whilst moving/shuffling up and onto/towards your target. You are essentially driving through your intended target, or meeting that target whilst redirecting the incoming force and striking pre-emptively.

I explained this in another thread far more efficiently and will retrieve is as soon as that dang website comes back online. Essentially no root is lost and the moment where the feet are sort of in transition are at the points where the driving force and momentum are already comitted forwards and onto the front foot. The whole thing occurs so briefly that I would defy any person to be able to uproot you using this approach. It's the same thing as a static rooted strike driving off the back foot accept it is a dynamic version where you are in a transit towards another movement or application. This is the reality of combat... you can't stand still forever. You have to know how to move and apply your techniques within a dynamic and ever changing circumstance.

The bottom line was that I found it really quite interesting that I was able to get an obvious gain in power when issuing forward using this whip like shuffle. The bag behaved quite differently to a static standard rooted strike. As I said before I can only give my word on it as I can't demonstrate it personally.

A half step follow up AFTER issuing is one thing, but one, or both feet leaving the ground at the very moment of issuing?

I think we are saying the same thing, though perhaps I was a little inelegant in my use of the terms... "both feet off the ground". Ofcourse I am not saying you should issue when your feet are in mid air... forget that.

Now that suggests lack of root.

Agreed...

I have watched my teacher

By the way, who is your teacher?

give demonstrations of getting power to "explode" within a target many, many times. I have NEVER seen him issue without his feet solidly planted on the ground.

Sure, that makes sense.

Now, as I said before, people do things differently, and what matters is whether or not it works, but Erle's comment on how a heavy bag moves when fa jing is done correctly was highly suspect to me.

I can't answer to that, you'll have to talk to Erle. Send him an E-mail he actually answers all genuine questions from all comers.

I have seen a few Taiji teachers demonstrate fa jing blows on heavy bags, and the ones who could really do it good could make the bag jump from the front surface being struck, or the center, or the opposite side of the bag being struck.

Dunno, but I've never had any problems making a bag jump in the manner you describe either. I do it most every day when I train.

Sounds weird in the written word but when you watch it happen you can literally see what the kinetic force is doing to/through the bag.

Agreed, now you would see about a 15% increase when whipping and shuffling forward and launching into the bag issuing fajin, rather than remaining statically rooted. I can get both shots pretty close to the same but I have noticed a definate increase in power and bag reaction when I employ the other technique discussed.

Why didn't Erle use a heavy bag to demonstrate instead of having someone hold up a mitt? You can't really see what is happening at all.

We often train using Mits because we aren't exactly training a typical physical force on object style strike. The strike when issuing fajin as we learn it happens in the backward whipping action of the fist or palm and so the effect is more stinging internally rather than the visual effect of slamming something force on force and seeing it move in a large sweep.

I can't say for sure what Erle was trying to do exactly but it's my guess that he was demonstrating the technique exactly as we train for it. It's an internal training technique of striking rather than an external one. I do have video's of Erle issuing fajin on heavy bags but the way we train that kind of striking is subtle and mits are generally used.

Anyways what I am saying is all of the most destructive blows I have seen and felt were done by people with thier feet planted firm on the ground.

Sure... I would agree. All I was saying is that when in a combat situation you are required to move, shuffle and shift and there will be many ocassions when your feet will be leaving the ground for fractions of a second and in very small degrees. I was trying to point out that it is not necessary or desirable to stay in one spot firmly rooted in order to get off powerful and explosive shots on an opponent. Dig what goes on during large San Sau! I am not suggesting however that anybody should try issuing whilst in mid air with both feet off the ground! *L*

Without root, without physical connection with the ground, high power cannot be generated with the body's structure, let alone be tranferred.

Yeah, yeah.. we are agreed.

Without root, throwing a blow in mid air will cause your force to rebound back into your own frame, pushing you back down to the ground, whereas if you were rooted, all of that wasted force could have been routed through your structure into the opponent at the moment of impact.

Ofcourse... hope I cleared some things up.

Best, Syd