MasterKiller, this ROTK review is for you.

[cho]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
As far as I can tell, the most repeated theme in these movies is "Hobbits love man meat."

Well, there's the whole thing about power, and greed of mortals. Friendship, which most hicks perceived as ****sexuality. And hope, in hopelessness.

don't get me started on Matrix.....

Originally posted by Judge Pen We all know Chewbacca is cooler than Han Solo

I guess we should've expected that from a Shaolin-Do guy

[Judge Pen]

I didn't say Chewbacca was cooler. The author of the review said Chewbacca was cooler.

As for me, I loved the ROTK. I've seen it twice now. The multiple endings didn't bother me and, since I'm not a fan of the books necessarily, the deletion of the scouring of the shire won't bother me either. There was a lot of scenes that were abviously edited out fo the Battle for Minas Tirith that should be added for the EE.

Oh, MK, a friend of mine has a similar complaint with these movies and there use of the phrase "The _____ of _________." {Insert geek terminology here} "The horn of gondor" etc. But it makes sense in a world that was created basically from scratch. Imagine if you had no concept of civics or American culture. The Statue of Liberty sounds equally geeky.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by cho

Friendship, which most hicks perceived as ****sexuality.

I guess I'm just a hick with a literature degree who has written 2 novels. I suppose your pedigree and training allows you to understand the subtleties in these boring, and ultimately empty, films which I cannot possibly fathom.

Well, there's the whole thing about power, and greed of mortals.

Yeah, ok. I got that after the 40 minute intro to the first movie. I don't need 10 more hours of movie to tell me people are easily corrupted by power.

[Judge Pen]

BTW, MK, what are the underlying themes of Star Wars? Why does it take 6 films to convey those themes completely? Can you glean those themes within 1 or 2 of the films? If so, are the rest superfluous?

The Star Wars story entertains you (probably for nostalgic reasons and not objective reasons). It is no less geeky then LOTR. It is not made better than LOTR (for this point, I'm holding them as equally well done; I’m sure we could disagree). For reasons understood by you, they are more entertaining. Fine, but I submit that Lucas drew much influence from Tolkien. There are parallels to be made in the themes and characterizations.

[dwid]

I guess I'm just a hick with a literature degree who has written 2 novels. I suppose your pedigree and training allows you to understand the subtleties in these boring, and ultimately empty, films which I cannot possibly fathom.

Why not just admit that you don't like the genre? It's okay not to like something for no other reason than that it doesn't appeal to you. Why does you not liking the films have to be justified by flaws in the films themselves? From your criticisms, it is clear that these movies could not have been made in a way that would have allowed you to enjoy them. Clearly, they are not to your tastes, so why not just admit that instead of denigrating (by implication) anyone who happened to enjoy them?

[MasterKiller]

Why not just admit that you don't like the genre? It's okay not to like something for no other reason than that it doesn't appeal to you. Why does you not liking the films have to be justified by flaws in the films themselves? From your criticisms, it is clear that these movies could not have been made in a way that would have allowed you to enjoy them. Clearly, they are not to your tastes, so why not just admit that instead of denigrating (by implication) anyone who happened to enjoy them?

Where did I denigrate anyone for liking them? Did I call someone gay? Did I call someone a hick? Please, point out where I made a personal attack in regards to someone liking the movies?

I never said I don't like the genre. There are several fantasy films I do like. Perhaps, if the movies were less bloated, I would like them, and perhaps the bloat is in part due to the text from which it originates; which I have tried to read, but alas, found the material bloated and sappy and couldn't get into it. I find good story-telling to be more than just how many Orcs one can fit on the screen. Sure, the movies look good (except for the cheesy Ent effects), but when you leave the theatre, what are you thinking? What is the message? What conversations can you have about it EXCEPT that it looked good and made your @ss hurt while watching it?

[Chang Style Novice]

I said power is ONE ONE LEVEL what the films are about. They're also about the disappearance of wonder and faith. Elves and Wizards and Magic Rings and Walking Trees and all that wacky romantic nonsense holds Middle Earth in a state of arrested development - they literally can't progress past a medieval/feudal state. Saruman starts playing with industrial revolution stuff, but he's nuts and enthralled by magical powers (Sauron) and so can't do it gently and wisely, so he ****es the forces of Nature off, as well as ****ing of his neighbors, since he's threatening them with his new powers. (This stuff is better elaborated in the books, but it is still in the movies)

By the end of the books, all the elves and wizards and **** are gone, and all that's left are men, dwarves (who have no magic) and hobbits (ditto.) And they've got to deal with everyday sh!t. In the person of Saruman, who, stripped of his magical power is using his technological power to make a play for a coup d'etat in the Shire. (This is why the Scouring of the Shire is so important.) But the non-magical hobbits go and kick his ass for him using the skills they've learned fighting Sauron. They've gone from being happy little rustic butterballs to hardass rennaissance men.

There's more subtext than that, too, MK. Look, I respect your intellect and your education and your accomplishments, but you've obviously got a blind spot for these kinds of genre pictures and a soft spot for other kinds of genre pictures. So do we all - I think the Matrix stuff is a shallow, solipsistic, druggy excuse for navel gaving. You disagree.

And don't wag your lit degree at us anymore - I don't have one, but at least I managed to finish Moby-Dick and I'm not giving up on Ulysses. Again, not meaning to be insulting, it's just that there are different strokes for different folks.

edit - crossposted with MK, so I didn't see his last post before I wrote this. Anyway, see above for more discussion you can have about the flicks.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by Judge Pen
BTW, MK, what are the underlying themes of Star Wars? Why does it take 6 films to convey those themes completely? Can you glean those themes within 1 or 2 of the films? If so, are the rest superfluous?

I have several issues with the prequels, so I will try to limit this discussion to the original Holy triliogy. Star Wars, in of itself, is about how Luke must suffer for his father's sins, and ultimatley, must redeem his father because Anakin is unable to do so.

Taken in context, the dark father (Darth Vader is Swedish, I believe, for Dark Father), figure in European oral tradition is a very old concept, seen even in the likes of stories about King Arthur, Beowulf, etc...

The concept is, of course, that a male child can only become a Man by ridding himself of his father's sins. The father passes his sins off to his son, and is unable to train the child into manhood because he sees his own failures inherent in the child. The male child can only be initiated by an older, non-realative (Obi-Wan Kenobi, in Arthur's case, Merlin), after the child is removed from the birth home and taken into the wilderness. This is a social function prevelent in MOST cultures, and is not foriegn to our ow. In modern times, the soccer coach or even Martial Arts instructor serves this purpose to an extent.

After the training, which usually involves a quest, the male son returns to the father and expunges his sins by returning the birth wounds to him. I.E. Luke must pay Vader back for the injuries he suffered at the hands of his father---visually, this is accomplished when Luke cuts off Vader's hand, ultimately leading to Vader's death. When Luke returns the wound, but then refuses to obey the Emperor, he becomes a man, and in doing so, redeems Vader by not following the same path of fear. Luke rebukes Vader's decisions and sheds himself of the sins Anakin was unable to aviod himself.

So, in essence, those original 3 films are about male initiation and rites of manhood.

The Star Wars story entertains you (probably for nostalgic reasons and not objective reasons). It is no less geeky then LOTR. It is not made better than LOTR (for this point, I'm holding them as equally well done; I’m sure we could disagree). For reasons understood by you, they are more entertaining. Fine, but I submit that Lucas drew much influence from Tolkien. There are parallels to be made in the themes and characterizations.

Objectively, I see more intrinsic value in the need for male initiation and rites of passage, especially in a modern world where boys do not have someone showing them how to become men. This is especially apparent in the new trilogy, where Obi-Wan pretty much fails to teach Anakin properly, and we see the ****ing consequences.

I do believe Lucas' big mistake was convincing himself that he is making kid's movies, when his message was originally far from childish.

The fallacy Tolkien fans make is that Lucas drew from him; when the truth is, in fact, they were both drawing from the same source materials, hence the parallels.

[@PLUGO]

I think DWID was refering to this comment ...you to understand the subtleties in these boring, and ultimately empty, films which I cannot possibly fathom. ... which seems to imply that anyone who likes this film must not have noticed that it was "boring & ultimately empty"

To which, of course, I'll completely disagree.

In terms of the Prequels:
I find myself wondering how Yoda (a glorified GREEN HOBBIT) hopping around like a frog with a glowing sword (sting perhaps?) against count Dookie (who made a much better Saruman) granted episode II any substance?

In terms of the original 3
I loved them as a kid. Made quite an impression. Upon viewing them now I still enjoy the nostalgic rush but here read this...
Star Wars:
A Penetrating Analysis
Phallic light sabers. X-Wing penetration. A dominatrix father. Ugh. Sounds like a tale of impotence.


but y'know whatever... it's only a movies right?

btw MK:
When will one of your 2 novels be hitting the big screen?

[Chang Style Novice]

Some novels should remain novels - literature and film have a lot in common, but not everything. I shudder to think at what would be lost in a movie version of Ulysses, for example.

[Chang Style Novice]

Oh, and I dislike the Star Wars movies from Return of the Jedi on because they're really badly made, not because they're thematically empty.

[MasterKiller]

And don't wag your lit degree at us anymore - I don't have one, but at least I managed to finish Moby-**** and I'm not giving up on Ulysses. Again, not meaning to be insulting, it's just that there are different strokes for different folks.

For the record, I finished Moby Dlck but didn't like it. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. In fact, I would argue the inverse is true in most cases. If everyone agrees on something, it generally means it appealed to the lowest common denomenator in that population sample.

I was responding to the "hick" remark when I mentioned my degree. So I'll quit wagging my training when you quit wagging your art training, tough guy. I don't see a shortage of your posts on threads concerning anything art related or even comics related. On a thread concerned with thematic content of a story, I believe I have the credentials to add my $.02 as well.

When will one of your 2 novels be hitting the big screen?

I suppose when people actually start reading what I write.

[@PLUGO]

I suppose when people actually start reading what I write.

I was gonna comment on your post about Star was but I only skimmed it . . .

but do let me know when the comic adaptation comes out!!!

[Chang Style Novice]

Hey, I'm perfectly happy to listen to other people's ideas about art. It looked to me like you were using your lit degree as an excuse to dismiss other people's ideas about lit. That's the logical fallacy of appeal to authority. All I'm saying is that making your argument serves you better than letting your credentials be your argument.

But, since you brought up art -

Any of you cats have a chance to see that "Rivers and Tides" movie I posted on a few months ago? Andy Goldsworthy totally owns!

[Chang Style Novice]

http://www.aintitcool.com/display.cgi?id=16641

HOBBIT-MAN: THE KING RETURNS
Whenever cool movie series get to the third movie they suck dicks like they’re trying to become Emperor of Dicksuck-ylvania. George Lucas had Star Wars, and then Empire Kicks Ass, and then all of a sudden it’s Planet of Furry ***goty ****heads. Then he had to make two more to feed the Suck Demon that was holding his children hostage, and those movies went beyond gay to where they’re paying old people to take a dump on them.

Even this summer, with MATRIX: SUDDENLY GAY and TERMINATOR: I LOVE COCK, the Rule of the Suck-y Third Movie got re-proven. If the third X-Men movie had come out this summer it probably would have been some crippled crock of crap where Wheelchair Charlie traps **** Yeah Wolverine in an illusion mind-trap where Wolverine thinks he’s a time traveler from a hundred years ago romancing Meg Ryan in right-now New York. Of course, the X-Men movie would try to redeem itself in the third act by having Wolverine realize it’s a mind-illusion and cut Meg’s head off and play dodgeball with it, but it would be too late and here comes my extra large Sprite at the screen.

But guess what? One movie series turned that rule on its head. One 3-movie series said, “Wait a minute, we’re going to make the 3rd movie SO tits it will make the FIRST two movies look gay.”

I just saw HOBBIT-MAN: THE KING RETURNS and that’s the movie I was talking about in the last paragraph. This movie will make you forget that if you stick a knife in your belly you’ll bleed to death so do not bring a knife to this movie.

It’s also, thank ****ing God, LOUD. Even if you bring an iPod so you can listen to VH during the Elf parts you’ll take it off because I swear to ****ing Roth you do NOT know where the next big bang is going to come from, or when something big is going to crunch someone’s skull while you picture that person getting their skull crushed is really your neighbor upstairs that plays Dido all day or that dude at the Starbucks who’s always reading and looking all smart.

Oh yeah, the movie is also 3 hours and 20 minutes, and I think it’s almost four hours if you sit through all the credits (it was all pencil sketches of the characters, which I think means they ran out of money). So if you bring some chick who’s all like, “I have a spinning class tomorrow” or “I’m thirsty” tell her to go home and watch Gay Dudes and the Straight Guy because this movie takes ****ing commitment. I saw the one dude in front of me who was with this girl, and the President of Warner Brothers came out and said, “This movie is three hours and twenty minutes,” and before I could say, “So what, gaylord” the chick says to the dude she’s with that she has to GO. And he LET her go because this movie kicks so much ass you can SENSE it even before it starts. And this chick was a stone fox, and he probably could have made out with her, but he was like, “I’m going make out with this movie,” that’s how good it is. See ya, hottie.

This movie starts with the origin of Golem – that creepy guy who looks like Iggy Pop and wears Tarzan pants and wants the invisible-ring. He’s still on a quest with the two hobbits - Rudy from the film RUDY and Fredo - to throw the ring into a volcano (this is like a serious version of JOE VERSUS THE VOLCANO). The ring is also evil but you keep thinking, while you watch it, that someone should put it on and check out some boobs. I have a feeling those scenes will be in the DVDs.

At the same time, the two other midget-men and the giant hippies have seriously ****ed up that one evil guy’s tower (he was Count Duke in Star Wars: Every Cock in the Universe Up My Ass Part II), and they hook back up with Magneto, and also that chick with the bow and arrows and finally the Giant Midget with the Axe. Oh, and also that I Don’t Want to be the King/I Am Destined to Be the King Dude is with them, and he has this whole other story where he pretty much decides to be the King because, I mean, ***** for miles. This is where I started getting really confused, though, because they start talking about kingdoms and alliances and there’s a lot of lines like, “Rohan shall ride!” and “Gondor still stands!” and “Flabadan Son of Rectum must wear the mantle of Bloggith!” and also there’s some **** with the elves that’s like being in a ****ing candle store for twenty minutes.

But the movie is only doing this to set up the BATTLE OF ****-YOUR-PANTS, which isn’t the actual name of the battle but SHOULD be because you will **** stuff you did not eat when you see it.

It all has to do with the fact that one of the midget-men takes this orb from the bad guy and he looks into it and sees the glowing eye’s plan (or part of it – something about a tree dying and Enya music playing). So he and Magneto go to this huge white city where the king is being a dick and just eating dinner while every puke-ugly bad-ass on the planet starts surrounding it, ready to open a Wal-Mart that only sells ball-stomp. There’s this one medium-sized battle in a city that is like the last line of defense for the Big-Ass White City and it’s pretty cool, with a lot of head-crunching and these huge flying bat demon things that I swear to God grab horses and the dudes riding them and **** them up from the floor up. They’re really loud, too, and a lot of chicks and older people were covering their ears.

cont.