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Thread: MasterKiller, this ROTK review is for you.

  1. #46
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    The armor is really a glorified life support suit, not heavy body armor. It only protects against indirect laser blasts, not concussion weapons or direct laser hits. Later, cortosis armor is developed which can shield against lightsaber cuts, but it's still subject to concussion attacks.

    As far as Nature vs Technology goes, you will find out in EP III that the Jedi have lost their way by relying on too much technology, trying to count midi-chlorians, etc. They have committed a horrible act of hubris in trying to quantify the Force, which is why they have lost their connection to it. Midi-Chlorians have nothing to do with the Force and the connection people have to it. There is no physical link. It is a purely spiritual experience.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 12-30-2003 at 11:50 AM.
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  2. #47
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    Originally posted by MasterKiller
    you will find out in EP III that the Jedi have lost their way by relying on too much technology, trying to count midi-chlorians, etc. They have committed a horrible act of hubris in trying to quantify the Force, which is why they have lost their connection to it. Midi-Chlorians have nothing to do with the Force and the connection people have to it. There is no physical link. It is a purely spiritual experience.
    Are you speculating or has Lucas hired you as a ghostwriter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  3. #48
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    The Searchers +The Hidden Fortress + set and costume design ala Flash Gordon serials = Star Wars (original flavor only.) Obi-Wan Kenobi is about 50% Ethan Edwards and about 50% Rokurota Makabe.

    I don't buy for a minute that George Lucas has a trilogy of trilogies in mind from the beginning - that whole "Part IV" wasn't there in the original I saw back in 2nd grade, I'm sure of it. That said, he got great talent to help him on The Empire Strikes Back which is why it's a great sequel, superior to the first one. He got hacks to help him on the 3rd, which is why it sucks. He pretty much did the prequel trilogy himself, and he's a hack, which is why they suck.

    IMO, obviously.

    PS - I CAN'T be the only one here who figures the badass giant elephant charge in The Battle of **** Your Pants is a tribute to the badass AT-AT charge in The Empire Strikes Back.

  4. #49
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    I don't buy for a minute that George Lucas has a trilogy of trilogies in mind from the beginning - that whole "Part IV" wasn't there in the original I saw back in 2nd grade, I'm sure of it.
    The Episode IV tag was added to the re-release of the movie in November, after it had a huge summer draw. I guess that's when they green-lighted the sequels. However, in his original contract, Lucas asked for all sequel and marketing rights BEFORE they green-lighted ANH, so he had something in mind, but probably nothing in the scope of what he claims. That's how he made enough money to start ILM from scratch.

    But if you've ever seen the original treatment for ANH, it reads pretty much excactly like Hidden Fortress. In fact, they almost had to buy the rights to it before the studio would allow Lucas to proceed. The first script for Star Wars in closer to Phantom Menace than it is to A New Hope.

    Afterall, there is a scene cut from ANH where Biggs Darklighter tells Luke, right before they leave to fight the Deathstar, that he saw his father before he was killed. So, the Vader/Father concept hadn't been fully developed until at least after that scene was shot. This scene was restored in the Special Editions, but they do a walk-in-front wipe to cover the removed dialouge above.

    As far as Obi-Wan goes, not only is his name based off of General Makabe from hidden fortress (Ma-ka-be --- Ke-no-bi), but Toshiro Mifune was the original choice for the actor to play the role. His lack of English skillz is pretty much what made them go with Alec Guiness.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 12-31-2003 at 07:31 AM.
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  5. #50
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    I don't know at what point the elements from "The Searchers" came into it (you are clearly better versed in the minutiae of Lucasiana than I am) but I think in the final product it's pretty obvious - we've gone over this before elsewhere, but I got sh!t else to do today.

    A lot of the first part of the movie is taken right out of "The Searchers." The landscape of Tatooine looks just like John Ford's beloved Monument Valley panoramas (minus certain distinctive rock formations like "The Mittens," the Sandpeople raiders are analogous to the Comanche raiders, Luke loses a father figure (who's not really his father) in an early raid while he's away from his home, like Martin Pawley - and discovers the burned homestead in a nearly identical shot. He spends the rest of the movie searching for a kidnapped female relative (nice bit of slight variation here - in The Searchers, the girl isn't his sister, although he feels like she is - in Star Wars, the girl is his sister, although he doesn't know it.) And niftily, Martin Pawley is 1/8 Comanche while Luke is 1/2 Darth Vader. I think it's even arguable that the Comanche ambush of the posse is a bit like the raid on the Death Star, especially when they pilots fly into the canyon on their way to the target compared to when the posses get surrounded and make a break for the river.

    Anyway, if you can't tell, I recently rewatched "The Searchers" and it still whoops ass.

  6. #51
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    I don't know at what point the elements from "The Searchers" came into it (you are clearly better versed in the minutiae of Lucasiana than I am) but I think in the final product it's pretty obvious - we've gone over this before elsewhere, but I got sh!t else to do today.
    The Searchers was a big influence, especially the Tusken Raiders (the settlers call them the derogatory "Sand People" to show their disdain), but it's subtle in ANH. In Attack of the Clones, Tattooine takes on an obviously more Death Valley look, and Anakin's approach on the Tusken camp is shot-for-shot from The Searchers.

    The first draft of Empire Strikes Back was written by Leigh Bracket, the screen writer who wrote The Searches; however, Lucas eventually rejected her take on the Han/Leia relationship, and hired Lawrence Kasdan to re-write it.

    He spends the rest of the movie searching for a kidnapped female relative (nice bit of slight variation here - in The Searchers, the girl isn't his sister, although he feels like she is - in Star Wars, the girl is his sister, although he doesn't know it.)
    In an early version of the script, Luke is looking for his father on the Death Star. Leia doesn't come into the picture until almost the final draft.

    And niftily, Martin Pawley is 1/8 Comanche while Luke is 1/2 Darth Vader.
    The original inspiration for Vader is the wounded samurai in Hidden Fortress who lets Makabe and the Princess escape. He was wounded and disgraced by Makabe, and holds a serious grudge because of it, just like Obi-Wan is the reason Vader has to wear that suit, and he holds a grudge for it. Vader is always spouting off about Obi-Wan. "Your powers are weak, old man."; "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. His failure is now complete." etc...

    However, originally, Vader was a regular guy. They developed the suit as a way for him to travel between ships, and when that idea was scrapped, the suit was so cool they decided to have him wear it all the time.

    think it's even arguable that the Comanche ambush of the posse is a bit like the raid on the Death Star, especially when they pilots fly into the canyon on their way to the target compared to when the posses get surrounded and make a break for the river.
    I wouldn't say that. If you ever seen the Myth and Magic tour, they show you the original WW2 footage Lucas spliced together as a mock-up of the Death Star battle. It was more of homage to WW2 dogfights than anything else.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 12-31-2003 at 08:50 AM.
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  7. #52
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    The first draft of Empire Strikes Back was written by Leigh Bracket, the screen writer who wrote The Searches; however, Lucas eventually rejected her take on the Han/Leia relationship, and hired Lawrence Kasdan to re-write it.
    Really? That's pretty interesting, and the first I ever heard of it. I have to admit, the Leia/Han relationship is one of the best things in "Empire" although I read an account once where (IMO) the best dialog on it was actually Harrison Ford's contribution. In the scene right before he's carbonated, she tells him "I love you" and his written line was "I love you too" but the final "I know" was (Harrison) Ford's idea. And a much better one, I think.

    Cool tidbit about the WWII footage, as well. That's new to me, and makes a lot of sense as inspiration. But still - when they get into that narrow groove and are moving forward to their goal and caught in a crossfire from both sides. Well, you see what I mean.

    The original inspiration for Vader is the wounded samurai in Hidden Fortress who lets Makabe and the Princess escape. He was wounded and disgraced by Makabe, and holds a serious grudge because of it, just like Obi-Wan is the reason Vader has to wear that suit, and he holds a grudge for it. Vader is always spouting off about Obi-Wan. "Your powers are weak, old man."; "Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. His failure is now complete." etc...
    Yeah, no question. It's interesting, though, that both the wounded general in "The Hidden Fortress" and the Comanche war chief in "The Searchers" have hideous facial scars - the war chief is actually called Scar - and could both possibly be seen as forerunners of Vader.

    Another similarity between the two is in the Ethan Edwards/Kenobi character. Both are great warriors from the losing side of a major war in the recent - but not that recent - past, and both are notably renegades: Ethan is implied to have an outlaw past by the Texas Ranger character, and Kenobi is considered a crazy old hermit. They also are both intimately familiar with the ways of the respective 'savages' they coexist with. The difference (and this is what makes Ethan a more interesting character, in my view) is that Kenobi is just sort of a wise old guy who wants the best for everyone - he's nobility and wisdom personified and has no character flaws to speak of. Ethan, on the other hand, is an impulsive, obsessive, violent, sadistic, egotistical racist. He's the only guy who can do the job, which nominally makes him the 'hero,' but you just can't admire the guy because he's such an absolute pr!ck. He only does the right thing once in the movie, right at the very end, and then he does it for the wrong reason. Basically, it's this kind of emotional complexity that Star Wars lacks for me, putting it basically at the level of superior popcorn entertainment, where The Searchers is truly great art as well as an exciting action/suspense western.

  8. #53
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    he's nobility and wisdom personified and has no character flaws to speak of.
    Well, Kenobi is flawed, on several levels. First and foremost, he has assumed Qui-Gon Jinn's arrogance. Secondly, he fails to train Anakin properly, which could be attributed to Qui-Gon passing the arrogance bug onto him. He is also petty at times. He calls Tuskens "Sand People," chastizes his teachers for not letting him get his way, and lies to Luke about his role and importance in the Galactic Civil War. He even has a prejudice against sentient droids. "If they could think, there wouldn't be a need for any of us." Kenobi is only on Tatooine to look after Luke. He is making amends for his failure with Anakin. Yoda eventually teaches him (as will be seen in EP III) how to survive death by merging with the Force, and he spends his time on Tatooine meditating and preparing himself for this task in case he dies before Luke is able to realize his potential.

    That being said, The Searchers is American cinema at it's finest. Star Wars is important to me for the spirit of the films, not necessarily for the execution of the material. Afterall, Star Wars could be seen as an homage to greater, original films. And while it has it's moments, it never quite captures the spirit of any of those originals.

    In the scene right before he's carbonated, she tells him "I love you" and his written line was "I love you too" but the final "I know" was (Harrison) Ford's idea. And a much better one, I think.
    That line was all Harrison. Interstingly, one of the best lines in Indiana Jones was an ad lib on his part too. On the German sub, the girl comments on him being too old to be fighting, etc... and Ford ad libbed the line: "It's not the years, it's the miles."
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 12-31-2003 at 09:48 AM.
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  9. #54
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    I shoulda been more clear, the character of Kenobi in the 1st Star Wars movie had no flaws. Sure the Ewan MacGregor version ain't perfect, but I was really comparing the roles played by John Wayne and Alec Guiness in just one movie each.


    I obviously agree that "The Searchers" is one of the greatest flicks in US cinematic history - it's a godd@mn shame that "Around the World in 80 Days" won the Best Picture oscar in '56, and "The Searchers" didn't even get nominated, and Wayne wasn't even nominated for Best Actor, nor John Ford for best director, nor Frank Nugent for best adapted screenplay. Just goes to show the Academy Awards have been a stupid sham for as long as anyone can remember.

    Ever catch "The Ox-Bow Incident"? There's another top-notch western for ya. That one at least got a Best Picture nom from the Academy, showing their head wasn't completely rectalized. And it lost to Casablanca, which is pretty respectable.

  10. #55
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    I shoulda been more clear, the character of Kenobi in the 1st Star Wars movie had no flaws.
    Well, in ANH, he lies to Luke about his past to tempt him into training, but you don't know he lied until ESB. I see the first trilogy as one movie in 3 acts, not 3 separate films.

    Just goes to show the Academy Awards have been a stupid sham for as long as anyone can remember.
    Kinda like Titanic beating The Usual Suspects for best picture. A travesty if I ever saw one.

    I haven't seen the Ox-Bow Incident, but I bought the Magnificent Seven DVD, and it's a beautiful transfer. Plus, you get a bunch of documenaries about how all the egos on the set changed the characterizations in the movie because everyone was trying to one-up each other in front of the camera.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 12-31-2003 at 10:22 AM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

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  11. #56
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    Cool trivia about "Ride the High Country" - originally Sam Peckinpah had Randolph Scott slated to play Steve Judd and Joel McCrae cast as Gil Westrum. But McCrae liked the Steve Judd role and Scott wanted to be Westrum, so each man independently went to Peckinpah asking they switch roles. They did, and the result is one heckuva movie. Not as great as "The Wild Bunch" but almost nothing is.

  12. #57
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    Originally posted by MasterKiller


    Kinda like Titanic beating The Usual Suspects for best picture. A travesty if I ever saw one.

    Or Shakespear in Love beating out Saving Private Ryan. The best movies usually don't win the Oscar for best picture.

    BTW, here's an interesting link: http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/ima...sw_vs_lotr.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  13. #58
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    Shakespeare in Love was a superior movie to Saving Private Ryan, which was clumsy, heavy-handed, and pedantic.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

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  14. #59
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    Everything is arguable, but I think the concensus now is that Saving Private Ryan was the better movie. But my point is that the better movie doesn't always win. What about Dances with Wolves beating out Goodfellas? Ordinary People beating out Apocalypse Now? Kramer v. Kramer beating out Raging Bull? How Green was my Valley beating out Citizen Kane? Forest Gump beating out Pulp Fiction? A Beautiful Mind beating out FOTR?

    Bah, if only I could vote in the Academy!
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

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    Well, FOTR, like ESB is a segwey movie, and not complete. Therefore, I don't think it has a right to a "best picture" award simply for the lack of a coherent, complete structure. Which is also why Reloaded or Kill Bill should not win best picture. They are incomplete.

    Anyway, the critical consensus has always been that SPR was heavily flawed, and definitely not Speilberg's best work. Sure, the battle scene was good, and sure, the message is important....but there are just too many signs of the director's hand in there for me to accept it as a great work of American cinema. It was good, but not great.

    Shakespeare in love, while not great either, was at least original, and was well acted, even by Bennifer Affleck. But the direction was pretty flawless, and the dialogue was wittier than the usual Hollywood flick.

    The academy awards, like most awards, are just a way for the industry to create a lot of hoopla over themselves. If they had fan voting, or even critics voting, it might mean something. But since the academy members are all ex-actors, directors, etc...who were part of the crappy Hollywood machine themselves, they rarely vote against the grain of the pop frenzy surrounding mainstream cinema.

    They think giving out a Best Foriegn Film award adds some artistic integrity to the process; ironically, the movie that wins Best Foriegn Film is usually BETTER than the movie that wins Best Picture.
    Last edited by MasterKiller; 12-31-2003 at 01:24 PM.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
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