koryu

[Falcor]

Has anyone here studied Koryu arts? Koryu arts are _old school_ Japanese martial arts that were invented and propogated before the Meiji period. Many of them are real samurai arts - i.e. they include the study of unarmed techniques like jujutsu as well as the study of various weapons including the sword, Yari (the spear), naginata (the halberd), chains, knives, etc. They are often different in strucutre of the curriculum and emphasis than many of the "modern" arts like Judo, aikido, Karate, etc.

The reason I ask is that in many ways, our regular kung fu training is like that, where we study the unarmed technques, as well as the techniques of using various battlefield weapons which don't apply nowadays. The "modern" JMA like karate, Judo, Aikido, kendo usually specialize or emphasize either empty hand alone, or have only a limited amount of weapons taught in their regular curriculum.

If you've done Koryu before, I'd like to hear your perspective on similarities or differences between those arts, and the CMA that you practice now. I would also be interested in hearing about what and which _aspects_ of the two that you like better or not like in your opinion. Thanks.

[Okinawan_Lohan]

Well, I've dabble briefly in the koryu of the Uchinadi, so I will try to give some answer to your question.

First, I'm going to be a bit nit-picky; karate isn't really Japanese, but Okinawan. yes, Okinawa is currently under the Japanese flag, but, in terms of martial arts, it must be counted as a separate entity. Japan does have it's own forms of karate, though.

Anyway, the Koryu of Okinawa in some ways resembles current CMA training. Obviously, certain types of training will not be in use, as time constraints and the ever-present need to pay the rent tend to squeeze out different aspects of the instruction.

With all fairness, it doesn't follow that one could/should try to draw a parallel between "old world" training and modern day training for two different cultural styles.

So, to answer your question: kinda.

[Vash]

What he said.

[stimulant]

I actually tried to tell a japanese person that karate was from Okinawa and that the japanese had changed the meaning of 'karate', but they were having none of it!

[Vash]

Technically, it was the Okinawans who "officially" changed it. There was a meeting of the prominent toudi practitioners, and it was decided to officially change the character in toudi (alternate pronunciation "karate") to karate. The previous character, "tou," referenced the Tang dynasty of China.

Tang became, to the Okinawans, the embodiment of China.

Okinawan Lohan could give a hella lot more info than me.

[stimulant]

from a brief conversation I had with a very well respected (and it has to be said), and immensly skilled and dangerous Gojo Ryu Sensai I've known for 7 years, I was under the impression that the okinawans originally ment for the characters in karate to mean 'give respect to china' or something along those lines, but the japanese changed it to empty hand much to the okinawans dismay.

I'll be please again for an enlightenment people wish to share with me.

[Okinawan_Lohan]

Yes, the previous version of "karate" translated as Tang Hand, or China Hand, as it was during the Tang dynasty that relations between China and Okinawa really blossomed. This is true not only in the influence of martial arts, but culture, trading, things of that nature.

Previous to Funakoshi's book, "Karate Do Kyohan," karate had been written with both "Tou" and "kara," depending on the author. However, Funakoshi is usually credited with spreading the use of "empty" in place of "China."

The general story which is passed on of the Japanese changing the spelling against Okinawan seems to have grown from miscommunications between foreign servicemen who trained in the arts briefly, then left.

This story's validity, that is, the involuntary change of characters, is non-existent. It is just another example of unresearched "history" which is passed down from dojo to dojo.

It kind of reminds me of a story about Tatsuo Shimabuku, founder of Isshinryu. It goes that, during the war, Tatsuo evaded military service under the Japanese by hiding. But, he was eventually discovered. However, his martial prowess was so well-known, the troops involved agreed not to tern him in if he instructed them in karate. A very unlikely story, considering the discipline of the Japanese army in regard to orders, the animosity between Okinawans and Japan, and several other factors of that time.

When researching martial history, it is best to stick to whatever has four reliable sources. I try to stick to governmental records and testimonies of those involved, when at all possible.

[stimulant]

a big thanks for the info!

[sing fu]

Hi,

I do a comprehensive koryu system with weapons, unarmed etc, and some other auxilliary koryu weapons, and have some basic chinese training from my family. I think you're spot on with the comprehensive nature of koryu and chinese arts, and that one of the major differentiating points is the cultural influence both arts' cultures have had on them.

Gotta go but will check in later!

[Vash]

sing fu

what style do you do? Is it Okinawan or Japanese?

[sing fu]

Vash,

I train in a few Japanese styles - hontai yoshin-ryu and yagyu shingan-ryu center on jujutsu, but also include staff, sword, cane and other weapons, as well as some other weapons training

One difference between koryu and kungfu is the training method - short two man sets and drills - is great with koryu. In most cases the "application(s)" of a movement is straight forward and you can work it over and over with a partner, but with chinese arts, a long set is good for categorising the movements to be studied and developing your endurance and jing.

Another one is the types of attacks traditionally trained against. Traditional japanese arts have little striking, and it is simpler than chinese arts. On the other hand, although some influence from chinese arts are felt in the Japanese, as with other Altaic cultures, the Japanese are good at grappling/wrestling, so lots of throws and locking etc are found too.

I'll leave it there for others to chime in now.

[rogue]

Never trust Isshinryu people. They punch funny and what the hell happened to the beginner katas?

BTW Go here for two articles on Choki Motubu Lots of politics when karate made the jump to Japan.

[Vash]

That sounds cool. I've never been much for weapons, though. As unlikely as an actual confrontation is, I prefer to train in something I know I'm capable of applying, and my weapons suck.

I like the bo, though. I play pool a lot on my downtime, so there's some definite carry-over.

Me, I've never had much of an affinity for the Japanese-based styles. Don't know why.

[Vash]

Originally posted by rogue
Never trust Isshinryu people. They punch funny and what the hell happened to the beginner katas?

BTW Go here for two articles on Choki Motubu Lots of politics when karate made the jump to Japan.

Yes, we Isshinryu people are truly . . . what's the word?

Those articles were good. You should check out the book; they have it in their eStore at Fightingarts. Very good. There's a very "Bruce Lee" quote on page 46 . . . "Liberate yourself from fixed postures and seek to cultivate unconstrained technique and movement."

It's too bad no one in Isshinryu studied under Motobu.

[sing fu]

You Okinawan guys have some really good stuff with the unarmed striking/grappling and weapons.

We spend some solid time working with weapons like the cane, short chain etc which can be translated into makeshift self-defense weaponry too. I definately don't think spear or halberd is up there in terms of street-applicability though!